Catastrophic engine failure unknown oil,K&N filter
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gathermewool
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He gave us the Si clue, which could be misdirection or relevant. going along those lines maybe he didn't install the filter correctly, and it sucked into the intake. Maybe it's not the filter at all. Could some one have tossed a handful of sand in the sump?
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Originally Posted By: cfromc
I'm surprised no one mentioned the silicon yet.
Unless this is all it takes (shows) for the "liquid glass" stuff that they pour in an engine for CFC cars ..it would be a hard sell that it was a big player in the mix here.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the silicon yet.
Unless this is all it takes (shows) for the "liquid glass" stuff that they pour in an engine for CFC cars ..it would be a hard sell that it was a big player in the mix here.
Well, I guess I don't put much into Consumer Reports. I work in the real world and am an ASE Master Tech on the side as a hobby. I have access to the data of over 1,000,000 warranty and extended service contract claims a year. Part of my job is analyzing the claims to identify trends, etc. I won't say who I work for, but it is not GM. I understand there are lemons, you don't think every manufacturer has lemons? Look at the multitude of problems Toyota is having right now. But all this talk is really not relevent to this UOA. Can we just leave it out of it?
This vehicle has had a hard life from what I can see. There are a few mods like lift-kit, oversize mudder tires, and a cold air induction system with a big K&N filter on the end, and a few other things likely not related to this failure. The K&N is dark brown/gray and there is mud on the intake system, under the engine and all over the rest of the vehicle, including the interior. Ingestion of unfiltered or poorly filtered air would seem to be the reason for the high silicon. There was plently of dirt and sand to go around. The engine blew up when it was 3 quarts low. The owner put 2 quarts in to see if that would help, of course it didn't. The bearing and some other internals were severly overheated. This is likely due to the lack of oil and because the radiator was significantly blocked with caked-on mud. The oil sample was taken with the alleged 2 fresh quarts of oil in it and about 1.5-2 quarts of the "old" oil.
Based on the low viscocity, low flashpoint, condition of the oil filter, and evidence of sludge in the engine, I assume there has been a lack of maintenance. The bearings that "survived" are scored, worn out, overheated, and some are badly gouged.
My theory is that a combination of factors killed this engine. There was poor filtration by the filter and/or a loose fitting in the intake tract, the oil was not changed anywhere close to every 3K, the radiator was not providing enough cooling, the oil was run extremely low (2-3 quarts low), the engine suffered additional stress due to the oversize tires, and the engine was routinely flogged to high RPM while mudding.
The interior and exterior of the vehicle, while not a factor in this theory, certainly give the impression of an abused vehicle.
It's actually surprising it made it as far as it did. The owner said he put two quarts of oil in yet when it came in to the shop the oil was still a little below the "add" indicator. The failure point appears to be the main bearing, which looked horribly worn, dry, overheated, and was a twisted piece of metal by that point.
I cannot disclose certain aspects of this situation but I welcome other views, theories, etc. I'll answer as many questions as I can.
This vehicle has had a hard life from what I can see. There are a few mods like lift-kit, oversize mudder tires, and a cold air induction system with a big K&N filter on the end, and a few other things likely not related to this failure. The K&N is dark brown/gray and there is mud on the intake system, under the engine and all over the rest of the vehicle, including the interior. Ingestion of unfiltered or poorly filtered air would seem to be the reason for the high silicon. There was plently of dirt and sand to go around. The engine blew up when it was 3 quarts low. The owner put 2 quarts in to see if that would help, of course it didn't. The bearing and some other internals were severly overheated. This is likely due to the lack of oil and because the radiator was significantly blocked with caked-on mud. The oil sample was taken with the alleged 2 fresh quarts of oil in it and about 1.5-2 quarts of the "old" oil.
Based on the low viscocity, low flashpoint, condition of the oil filter, and evidence of sludge in the engine, I assume there has been a lack of maintenance. The bearings that "survived" are scored, worn out, overheated, and some are badly gouged.
My theory is that a combination of factors killed this engine. There was poor filtration by the filter and/or a loose fitting in the intake tract, the oil was not changed anywhere close to every 3K, the radiator was not providing enough cooling, the oil was run extremely low (2-3 quarts low), the engine suffered additional stress due to the oversize tires, and the engine was routinely flogged to high RPM while mudding.
The interior and exterior of the vehicle, while not a factor in this theory, certainly give the impression of an abused vehicle.
It's actually surprising it made it as far as it did. The owner said he put two quarts of oil in yet when it came in to the shop the oil was still a little below the "add" indicator. The failure point appears to be the main bearing, which looked horribly worn, dry, overheated, and was a twisted piece of metal by that point.
I cannot disclose certain aspects of this situation but I welcome other views, theories, etc. I'll answer as many questions as I can.
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Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: cfromc
Oh boy, here we go with "typical GM quality control". Get real, GM has some of the highest quality in the industry.
I'm not bashing GM, but do you honestly believe that GM has some of the highest quality? Seriously? How many billion did they just receive to keep them from going belly up?
I was a diehard Chevy guy! I drove them, raced them, and swapped Chevy components into my Jeeps. Chevy might as well have been a member of my family. - Then we bought the 2004 Maxx. Leaky windows, blown directional bulbs, wiring issues, full brakes every 12K (like clockwork), blown horn fuses, interior panels (kick panels) falling off, rack and pinion issues(X2), the stupid GM steering clunk! (have to WD40 the shaft every oil change), cracked exhaust (at 36K miles), alternator and a few others. The worst though, is the "intermitent hard/no start" issue. Every once in a while you'll turn the key, and it cranks and kinda sounds like it's trying to fire, but does it for 5-6 seconds and dies. It totally sucks.
I turned to my loyal friend GM for help. Dealt with the dealer and the factory rep for eight months. In a nutshell, they told me they could not reproduce the issues and to go pound sand. I remember that last visit; the dealer ser. manager was there, the tech, the fact. rep and the sales guy. We were talking outside as the tech went to start the car to bring it in. The [censored] thing did it's no start issue right in front of us. Know what I was told? "That's normal". Wow, a new car that cranks 50 times without starting, sounding like a box of marbles, with a TSB that was supposed to fix it, and that's normal?
Then it went to court and I won. It took three years and I had to keep the car and receive a settlement. Some of the members here know what my wife and I went through. At least I received something. Fortunately, I grew up a motorhead and worked as an ASE cert. mechanic while attending college. I was able to correct or find solutions to some of the issues myself (except the int. hard start). It's too bad, because it really is a nice car. Decent power, awesome mileage, and very comfortable. It's just very hard to get over the troubles we have/had and how GM didn't return it's loyalty.
So, the next time someone cries "GM bashing", perhaps they should stop and think that maybe the person who is posting was screwed on a "quality" GM vehicle. GM's quality control is the buyer, and it has been for a while. EVERY manufacturer has quality issues once in a while, but GM really slumped. So did Chrysler. If either of these companies had the highest quality in the industry, they would not be where they are today. It's not bashing, it's a fact!
You know, despite all the hassle, I really do hope that GM get's its act together. It seems like they're moving in the right direction. Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to buy another one, at least not for a long time. I've moved on to Ford(a family sacrilege!) and have been treated very well.
Sometimes quality issues can be offset by customer service.
I apologize for the big rant! I've seen a couple of "stop GM bashing" posts lately and had to get it out.
Suffice to say, I think that GM is starting to turn it around for the better and I wish them luck!
I understand your pain!! Sometimes when it rains it pours with a lemon. I've seen a lot of GM lemons. I've also seen VW, Audi, Hyundia, Honda, Toyota, etc. lemons. When a manufacturer/dealer leaves a bad taste in your mouth I know it is very hard to go back. I can't say I would go back. I have had good luck overall, especially in the past several years, with GM. The reason I put my comment is because I didn't want this thread to turn into a "GM problem" thread. Those are elsewhere in the forums. The failure to this vehicle had nothing to do with the badge on the bumper. I doubt if any vehicle would have survived the lack of maintenance, including being three quarts low, blocked radiator, +heavy off-roading.
Originally Posted By: cfromc
Oh boy, here we go with "typical GM quality control". Get real, GM has some of the highest quality in the industry.
I'm not bashing GM, but do you honestly believe that GM has some of the highest quality? Seriously? How many billion did they just receive to keep them from going belly up?
I was a diehard Chevy guy! I drove them, raced them, and swapped Chevy components into my Jeeps. Chevy might as well have been a member of my family. - Then we bought the 2004 Maxx. Leaky windows, blown directional bulbs, wiring issues, full brakes every 12K (like clockwork), blown horn fuses, interior panels (kick panels) falling off, rack and pinion issues(X2), the stupid GM steering clunk! (have to WD40 the shaft every oil change), cracked exhaust (at 36K miles), alternator and a few others. The worst though, is the "intermitent hard/no start" issue. Every once in a while you'll turn the key, and it cranks and kinda sounds like it's trying to fire, but does it for 5-6 seconds and dies. It totally sucks.
I turned to my loyal friend GM for help. Dealt with the dealer and the factory rep for eight months. In a nutshell, they told me they could not reproduce the issues and to go pound sand. I remember that last visit; the dealer ser. manager was there, the tech, the fact. rep and the sales guy. We were talking outside as the tech went to start the car to bring it in. The [censored] thing did it's no start issue right in front of us. Know what I was told? "That's normal". Wow, a new car that cranks 50 times without starting, sounding like a box of marbles, with a TSB that was supposed to fix it, and that's normal?
Then it went to court and I won. It took three years and I had to keep the car and receive a settlement. Some of the members here know what my wife and I went through. At least I received something. Fortunately, I grew up a motorhead and worked as an ASE cert. mechanic while attending college. I was able to correct or find solutions to some of the issues myself (except the int. hard start). It's too bad, because it really is a nice car. Decent power, awesome mileage, and very comfortable. It's just very hard to get over the troubles we have/had and how GM didn't return it's loyalty.
So, the next time someone cries "GM bashing", perhaps they should stop and think that maybe the person who is posting was screwed on a "quality" GM vehicle. GM's quality control is the buyer, and it has been for a while. EVERY manufacturer has quality issues once in a while, but GM really slumped. So did Chrysler. If either of these companies had the highest quality in the industry, they would not be where they are today. It's not bashing, it's a fact!
You know, despite all the hassle, I really do hope that GM get's its act together. It seems like they're moving in the right direction. Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to buy another one, at least not for a long time. I've moved on to Ford(a family sacrilege!) and have been treated very well.
Sometimes quality issues can be offset by customer service.
I apologize for the big rant! I've seen a couple of "stop GM bashing" posts lately and had to get it out.
Suffice to say, I think that GM is starting to turn it around for the better and I wish them luck!
I understand your pain!! Sometimes when it rains it pours with a lemon. I've seen a lot of GM lemons. I've also seen VW, Audi, Hyundia, Honda, Toyota, etc. lemons. When a manufacturer/dealer leaves a bad taste in your mouth I know it is very hard to go back. I can't say I would go back. I have had good luck overall, especially in the past several years, with GM. The reason I put my comment is because I didn't want this thread to turn into a "GM problem" thread. Those are elsewhere in the forums. The failure to this vehicle had nothing to do with the badge on the bumper. I doubt if any vehicle would have survived the lack of maintenance, including being three quarts low, blocked radiator, +heavy off-roading.
My opinion of GM has not changed, though they do make some good ones too. I apologize for starting this by an off-topic comment.
My bad.
So, was this a sintered rod that snapped when the bearing seized? Or was it just at high RPM when it happened. Do you know?
My bad.
So, was this a sintered rod that snapped when the bearing seized? Or was it just at high RPM when it happened. Do you know?
Originally Posted By: qship1996
50,000 miles is about when I had engine problems with every GM car I ever bought{all purchased brand new}.....never again.
Thank you for your addition to the discussion. I really learned something.
I routinely get over 150,000 miles before I sell just to get something new. Maybe its you...?
50,000 miles is about when I had engine problems with every GM car I ever bought{all purchased brand new}.....never again.
Thank you for your addition to the discussion. I really learned something.
I routinely get over 150,000 miles before I sell just to get something new. Maybe its you...?
Originally Posted By: river_rat
My opinion of GM has not changed, though they do make some good ones too. I apologize for starting this by an off-topic comment.
My bad.
So, was this a sintered rod that snapped when the bearing seized? Or was it just at high RPM when it happened. Do you know?
The big end of the rod is in several pieces. I don't know at what RPM it happened. I came in a little late and there are a couple of things I would have looked into but it may be a little too late now. If there weren't so many other factors pointing to the reasons for failure, I would have gotten the PCM readout that shows what happened during the last run cycle. With little or no oil at the bearing I wouldn't be that surprised if the RPM wasn't that high when it failed.
My opinion of GM has not changed, though they do make some good ones too. I apologize for starting this by an off-topic comment.
My bad.
So, was this a sintered rod that snapped when the bearing seized? Or was it just at high RPM when it happened. Do you know?
The big end of the rod is in several pieces. I don't know at what RPM it happened. I came in a little late and there are a couple of things I would have looked into but it may be a little too late now. If there weren't so many other factors pointing to the reasons for failure, I would have gotten the PCM readout that shows what happened during the last run cycle. With little or no oil at the bearing I wouldn't be that surprised if the RPM wasn't that high when it failed.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Iffy Lube got their hands on it? LOL
No, I think ARCOgraphite got his hands on this bad boy. First Toyota and now he's done it to GM. I just kid ARCO!
Iffy Lube got their hands on it? LOL
No, I think ARCOgraphite got his hands on this bad boy. First Toyota and now he's done it to GM. I just kid ARCO!
The first thing that needs to happen to stop this problem is shoot the owner.
Was the owner surprised at all that this truck failed?
I mean running it low on oil is bad enough but really.
Trucks that get Offroaded need extra TLC. This is why in my jeep I usually run 2k ocis. and CHECK absolutely everything before and after any offroading.
This owner thought his truck would last forever, WRONG. He abused it, did not do even basic maintenance on a severely run engine. WOW.
I mean running it low on oil is bad enough but really.
Trucks that get Offroaded need extra TLC. This is why in my jeep I usually run 2k ocis. and CHECK absolutely everything before and after any offroading.
This owner thought his truck would last forever, WRONG. He abused it, did not do even basic maintenance on a severely run engine. WOW.
cfromc: You're holding a broken egg in one hand and you may never find the chicken that laid it, but it seems clear the truck was abused and neglected.
One thing I've seen that can cause broken con rods in a 4x4 is being hydrolocked or ingesting a large amount of water. K&Ns allow much more water to pass the filter, whereas many paper filter may stop flowing air (or water) before too much water gets through (if at high rpm, the engine may suck the wet paper filter through).
One thing I've seen that can cause broken con rods in a 4x4 is being hydrolocked or ingesting a large amount of water. K&Ns allow much more water to pass the filter, whereas many paper filter may stop flowing air (or water) before too much water gets through (if at high rpm, the engine may suck the wet paper filter through).
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
cfromc: You're holding a broken egg in one hand and you may never find the chicken that laid it, but it seems clear the truck was abused and neglected.
One thing I've seen that can cause broken con rods in a 4x4 is being hydrolocked or ingesting a large amount of water. K&Ns allow much more water to pass the filter, whereas many paper filter may stop flowing air (or water) before too much water gets through (if at high rpm, the engine may suck the wet paper filter through).
There appeared to be some beaded water in the combustion chamber when the head was removed but it could have been coolant. There was no water in the oil and by the time of inspection the intake tubing and filter were dry. I suspect it may have hydrolocked but there isn't enough to go on. IIRC, the TB is right over the cylinder that failed, which would support that theory. Water ingestion is certainly a viable explanation, I just don't think I could prove it at this point.
I've got nothing against 4-wheeling and nothing against modifications but I don't think mudding and an open air filter go together very well.
cfromc: You're holding a broken egg in one hand and you may never find the chicken that laid it, but it seems clear the truck was abused and neglected.
One thing I've seen that can cause broken con rods in a 4x4 is being hydrolocked or ingesting a large amount of water. K&Ns allow much more water to pass the filter, whereas many paper filter may stop flowing air (or water) before too much water gets through (if at high rpm, the engine may suck the wet paper filter through).
There appeared to be some beaded water in the combustion chamber when the head was removed but it could have been coolant. There was no water in the oil and by the time of inspection the intake tubing and filter were dry. I suspect it may have hydrolocked but there isn't enough to go on. IIRC, the TB is right over the cylinder that failed, which would support that theory. Water ingestion is certainly a viable explanation, I just don't think I could prove it at this point.
I've got nothing against 4-wheeling and nothing against modifications but I don't think mudding and an open air filter go together very well.
The owner stands behind his stated maintenance routine of changing the oil and filter every 3K miles. His contention is that the failure was due to an oil leak. One of the seals did have a slow drip. I don't believe that would explain the silicon, low viscocity, low flashpoint, and the thin layer of sludge and varnish in the engine. Whether this hydrolocked or not, this engine was destined for failure.
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