Castrol 0W-30 Belgium vs Castrol 0W-40 German
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Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Could we be sure that the viscosity chart is still correct at -20 C or is it more of a guess?
Discussion here recently.
Thanks Shannow for the thread.
I believe Castrol do not give the composition of their oil, so how can we determine if one is "better" than the other at cold temperature?
Is there a way apart from going up north and wait for the cold to come with two "identical" cars, each one with a different oil, to know or guess?
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Could we be sure that the viscosity chart is still correct at -20 C or is it more of a guess?
Discussion here recently.
Thanks Shannow for the thread.
I believe Castrol do not give the composition of their oil, so how can we determine if one is "better" than the other at cold temperature?
Is there a way apart from going up north and wait for the cold to come with two "identical" cars, each one with a different oil, to know or guess?
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Castrol gives the same CCS (5800 mPa.s at -35 C).
It's been suggested that these two oils are basically the same except for the VM content, and I'm inclined to agree. And if it is true that they both have the same CCS, then yes the 0W-30 will be lighter at all temp's which is as you suspected.
Other options available to you are M1 SM 0W-40 if you can still get it vs the heavier SN version, as it's CCS is 4300cP.
Or since your BMW is no longer under warranty, if you want to maximize your cold start performance just go with a synthetic 5W-30 like PP or even M1 0W-30. Yes these oils are also a bit lighter at operating temp's but they're still more than heavy enough.
Castrol gives the same CCS (5800 mPa.s at -35 C).
It's been suggested that these two oils are basically the same except for the VM content, and I'm inclined to agree. And if it is true that they both have the same CCS, then yes the 0W-30 will be lighter at all temp's which is as you suspected.
Other options available to you are M1 SM 0W-40 if you can still get it vs the heavier SN version, as it's CCS is 4300cP.
Or since your BMW is no longer under warranty, if you want to maximize your cold start performance just go with a synthetic 5W-30 like PP or even M1 0W-30. Yes these oils are also a bit lighter at operating temp's but they're still more than heavy enough.
How is a 5W-30 going to have better cold start than a 0W-30?
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Depends what you want. Wear protection or piston cleanliness
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Depends what you want. Wear protection or piston cleanliness
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Or since your BMW is no longer under warranty, if you want to maximize your cold start performance just go with a synthetic 5W-30 like PP or even M1 0W-30. Yes these oils are also a bit lighter at operating temp's but they're still more than heavy enough.
That is a discussion I don't have a conclusion yet on it:
I have plenty of PP 5w-30 and Synpower 5w-30 left in my garage to use, so it would be nice to use them, even on shorter intervals of course, since they are not as stud as the LL-01 oils.
I am partisan of "as light as possible, as heavy as needed"... or something along those lines, especially since I am not under warranty anymore.
My problem for the BMW lies on the HTHS minimal value that BMW requires: Is it for the longer interval or is it related to the design of the engine (tighter tolerances of the cams, etc...)?
If this is for the longer interval, I don't mind use a lighter with lower than 3.5 HTHS oil and change the oil earlier.
If this is a design requirement, I would still continue to use a LL-01 oil.
In doubt, I will take the safest way of course.
As you can see in the first UOA of this car Dealer Castrol 5w30, 2009 BMW 328iXdrive, 14.621km , cooper level is high and I don't want to make it worse by choosing an improper oil.
I still have about a year left to decide, but I am not sure I will find an answer to my question until then...
PS: BTW, the car is noticeably smoother with GC at all temps, and this is not just in my head as I am not the one who notices this type of things usually.
Or since your BMW is no longer under warranty, if you want to maximize your cold start performance just go with a synthetic 5W-30 like PP or even M1 0W-30. Yes these oils are also a bit lighter at operating temp's but they're still more than heavy enough.
That is a discussion I don't have a conclusion yet on it:
I have plenty of PP 5w-30 and Synpower 5w-30 left in my garage to use, so it would be nice to use them, even on shorter intervals of course, since they are not as stud as the LL-01 oils.
I am partisan of "as light as possible, as heavy as needed"... or something along those lines, especially since I am not under warranty anymore.
My problem for the BMW lies on the HTHS minimal value that BMW requires: Is it for the longer interval or is it related to the design of the engine (tighter tolerances of the cams, etc...)?
If this is for the longer interval, I don't mind use a lighter with lower than 3.5 HTHS oil and change the oil earlier.
If this is a design requirement, I would still continue to use a LL-01 oil.
In doubt, I will take the safest way of course.
As you can see in the first UOA of this car Dealer Castrol 5w30, 2009 BMW 328iXdrive, 14.621km , cooper level is high and I don't want to make it worse by choosing an improper oil.
I still have about a year left to decide, but I am not sure I will find an answer to my question until then...
PS: BTW, the car is noticeably smoother with GC at all temps, and this is not just in my head as I am not the one who notices this type of things usually.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
How is a 5W-30 going to have better cold start than a 0W-30?
Pesca asked about cold starting at -20C.
At that temp' a 5W-30 with very good cold start spec's like PP or PUP, should perform on par with a 0W-30 like M1. Or to put another way, -20C isn't cold enough for the extreme cold start advantage of M1 0W-30 to come into play yet.
How is a 5W-30 going to have better cold start than a 0W-30?
Pesca asked about cold starting at -20C.
At that temp' a 5W-30 with very good cold start spec's like PP or PUP, should perform on par with a 0W-30 like M1. Or to put another way, -20C isn't cold enough for the extreme cold start advantage of M1 0W-30 to come into play yet.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Depends what you want. Wear protection or piston cleanliness
Wear protection before piston cleanliness.
Could we get piston cleanliness by shortening the intervals (not pushing the OCI too much)?
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Depends what you want. Wear protection or piston cleanliness
Wear protection before piston cleanliness.
Could we get piston cleanliness by shortening the intervals (not pushing the OCI too much)?
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Or since your BMW is no longer under warranty, if you want to maximize your cold start performance just go with a synthetic 5W-30 like PP or even M1 0W-30. Yes these oils are also a bit lighter at operating temp's but they're still more than heavy enough.
That is a discussion I don't have a conclusion yet on it:
I have plenty of PP 5w-30 and Synpower 5w-30 left in my garage to use, so it would be nice to use them, even on shorter intervals of course, since they are not as stud as the LL-01 oils.
I am partisan of "as light as possible, as heavy as needed"... or something along those lines, especially since I am not under warranty anymore.
My problem for the BMW lies on the HTHS minimal value that BMW requires: Is it for the longer interval or is it related to the design of the engine (tighter tolerances of the cams, etc...)?
If this is for the longer interval, I don't mind use a lighter with lower than 3.5 HTHS oil and change the oil earlier.
If this is a design requirement, I would still continue to use a LL-01 oil.
In doubt, I will take the safest way of course.
As you can see in the first UOA of this car Dealer Castrol 5w30, 2009 BMW 328iXdrive, 14.621km , cooper level is high and I don't want to make it worse by choosing an improper oil.
I still have about a year left to decide, but I am not sure I will find an answer to my question until then...
PS: BTW, the car is noticeably smoother with GC at all temps, and this is not just in my head as I am not the one who notices this type of things usually.
Hey, I've got you thinking which is good!
Bimmers tend to run lower maximum operating temp's in the winter than they do in the summer which means your operational viscosity is higher on the same oil. BMW spec's a 3.5cP oil so if you do take you car to the track in the summer you'll have that extra viscosity reserve when you're oil temp's are higher than what they normally reach are just driving on the street.
I have found that a 3.0-3.1cP oil is more than heavy enough for even the most demanding street driving conditions on the hottest summer days.
That's why I have no reservations suggesting a lighter 30 grade oil like PP or Synpower for winter use even though you don't have oil gauges to determine for yourself that the oil is not too light yourself.
As you likely can guess, there are probably millions of BMWs and Merc's operating on a lighter than spec' 5W-30 oil in NA once out of warranty.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Or since your BMW is no longer under warranty, if you want to maximize your cold start performance just go with a synthetic 5W-30 like PP or even M1 0W-30. Yes these oils are also a bit lighter at operating temp's but they're still more than heavy enough.
That is a discussion I don't have a conclusion yet on it:
I have plenty of PP 5w-30 and Synpower 5w-30 left in my garage to use, so it would be nice to use them, even on shorter intervals of course, since they are not as stud as the LL-01 oils.
I am partisan of "as light as possible, as heavy as needed"... or something along those lines, especially since I am not under warranty anymore.
My problem for the BMW lies on the HTHS minimal value that BMW requires: Is it for the longer interval or is it related to the design of the engine (tighter tolerances of the cams, etc...)?
If this is for the longer interval, I don't mind use a lighter with lower than 3.5 HTHS oil and change the oil earlier.
If this is a design requirement, I would still continue to use a LL-01 oil.
In doubt, I will take the safest way of course.
As you can see in the first UOA of this car Dealer Castrol 5w30, 2009 BMW 328iXdrive, 14.621km , cooper level is high and I don't want to make it worse by choosing an improper oil.
I still have about a year left to decide, but I am not sure I will find an answer to my question until then...
PS: BTW, the car is noticeably smoother with GC at all temps, and this is not just in my head as I am not the one who notices this type of things usually.
Hey, I've got you thinking which is good!
Bimmers tend to run lower maximum operating temp's in the winter than they do in the summer which means your operational viscosity is higher on the same oil. BMW spec's a 3.5cP oil so if you do take you car to the track in the summer you'll have that extra viscosity reserve when you're oil temp's are higher than what they normally reach are just driving on the street.
I have found that a 3.0-3.1cP oil is more than heavy enough for even the most demanding street driving conditions on the hottest summer days.
That's why I have no reservations suggesting a lighter 30 grade oil like PP or Synpower for winter use even though you don't have oil gauges to determine for yourself that the oil is not too light yourself.
As you likely can guess, there are probably millions of BMWs and Merc's operating on a lighter than spec' 5W-30 oil in NA once out of warranty.
3 HTHS oils really struggle to pass the BMW RNT wear test. I doubt a GF-5 oil protects the valvetronic system well enough.
BMW LL01-FE is a tough specification because of this extr as of wear protections via the additive rather than visc
Cold start oil flow is what matter at -20c. A 0W will flow faster but that's based on fresh oil. What is more important is cold flow on the aged oils. Additive packs and PPD are more important than base oils here.
BMW LL01-FE is a tough specification because of this extr as of wear protections via the additive rather than visc
Cold start oil flow is what matter at -20c. A 0W will flow faster but that's based on fresh oil. What is more important is cold flow on the aged oils. Additive packs and PPD are more important than base oils here.
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Depends what you want. Wear protection or piston cleanliness
Wear protection before piston cleanliness.
Could we get piston cleanliness by shortening the intervals (not pushing the OCI too much)?
Go for a 0W40.
Piston cleanliness is really a high temperature issue. shortening drain won't really do much. In any case the difference,if any, is tiny here as they are so similar
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Reality is that both 0W-30 and 0W-40 are very similar here and the only difference is VM treat hence higher Kv100,HTHS and VI
Base oil viscosity can differ and in some cases there will be a slightly higher BOV with 0W-30 due to less VM allowing a CCS benefit Or higher BOV
Based on that, how would you classified the two oils if you had to?
Which one is "better" than the other?
Depends what you want. Wear protection or piston cleanliness
Wear protection before piston cleanliness.
Could we get piston cleanliness by shortening the intervals (not pushing the OCI too much)?
Go for a 0W40.
Piston cleanliness is really a high temperature issue. shortening drain won't really do much. In any case the difference,if any, is tiny here as they are so similar
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
3 HTHS oils really struggle to pass the BMW RNT wear test. I doubt a GF-5 oil protects the valvetronic system well enough.
BMW LL01-FE is a tough specification because of this extr as of wear protections via the additive rather than visc
I'm not going to argue with you on that, other than to say a friends '98 528 has over 400,000 kms on it and has never run anything other than various HTHS 3.0-3.2cP 5W-30s but with fairly short OCIs of around 10,000 kms.
Regarding LL01-FE 0W-30, good luck sourcing one of those in NA.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Cold start oil flow is what matter at -20c. A 0W will flow faster but that's based on fresh oil.
We don't know a 0W will flow faster than a 5W at that temperature. I think it's likely a toss-up comparing say M1 0W-30 and a light 5W-30 like PP. But it's my opinion that an oil like PP 5W-30 would be lighter than GC 0W-30 and any 0W-40 at that temperature.
The only practical way to find out for sure would be to compare the actual oils in a car with an oil pressure gauge.
3 HTHS oils really struggle to pass the BMW RNT wear test. I doubt a GF-5 oil protects the valvetronic system well enough.
BMW LL01-FE is a tough specification because of this extr as of wear protections via the additive rather than visc
I'm not going to argue with you on that, other than to say a friends '98 528 has over 400,000 kms on it and has never run anything other than various HTHS 3.0-3.2cP 5W-30s but with fairly short OCIs of around 10,000 kms.
Regarding LL01-FE 0W-30, good luck sourcing one of those in NA.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Cold start oil flow is what matter at -20c. A 0W will flow faster but that's based on fresh oil.
We don't know a 0W will flow faster than a 5W at that temperature. I think it's likely a toss-up comparing say M1 0W-30 and a light 5W-30 like PP. But it's my opinion that an oil like PP 5W-30 would be lighter than GC 0W-30 and any 0W-40 at that temperature.
The only practical way to find out for sure would be to compare the actual oils in a car with an oil pressure gauge.
Or just run a CCS at -20C. A 5W is likely to be group 3 where as 0W is PAO.
A 98 BMW doesn't have valvetronic either so no concerns there for the wear of the valvetronic system
I only mention LL01-FE as it is a 3 rather than 3.5 HTHS specification.
A 98 BMW doesn't have valvetronic either so no concerns there for the wear of the valvetronic system
I only mention LL01-FE as it is a 3 rather than 3.5 HTHS specification.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Or just run a CCS at -20C.
Of course that would be ideal but only rarely will you see a CCS measure provided at -20 for a 0W, 5W or even 10W oil.
It is only us anal BITOGers that are interested in the relative viscosities of various oils at subfreezing temp's that no one measures at. Truth is, starting at -20C is a piece of cake for any 5W oil.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
A 5W is likely to be group 3 where as 0W is PAO.
Actually the vast majority of 0W oils today are GP III based including M1 SN 0W-40.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I only mention LL01-FE as it is a 3 rather than 3.5 HTHS specification.
Actually it is no problem getting a BMW part number for the BMW LL-01-FE 0W-30, I actually tried to order some from my local dealer but was told the order would go into permanent backlog status as BMW Canada won't bring it in. Don't know if that's the case in the States but I suspect so.
The good news is that Fuchs Canada are supposed to be importing their LL-14-FE+ approved 0W-20 this winter. This oil is only approved for the N20 engine series at present but I can see other BMW winter use applications for some brave souls who may want to try it. The oil was discussed in the following thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3389793/1
Or just run a CCS at -20C.
Of course that would be ideal but only rarely will you see a CCS measure provided at -20 for a 0W, 5W or even 10W oil.
It is only us anal BITOGers that are interested in the relative viscosities of various oils at subfreezing temp's that no one measures at. Truth is, starting at -20C is a piece of cake for any 5W oil.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
A 5W is likely to be group 3 where as 0W is PAO.
Actually the vast majority of 0W oils today are GP III based including M1 SN 0W-40.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I only mention LL01-FE as it is a 3 rather than 3.5 HTHS specification.
Actually it is no problem getting a BMW part number for the BMW LL-01-FE 0W-30, I actually tried to order some from my local dealer but was told the order would go into permanent backlog status as BMW Canada won't bring it in. Don't know if that's the case in the States but I suspect so.
The good news is that Fuchs Canada are supposed to be importing their LL-14-FE+ approved 0W-20 this winter. This oil is only approved for the N20 engine series at present but I can see other BMW winter use applications for some brave souls who may want to try it. The oil was discussed in the following thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3389793/1
I know it's not provided but it's easier to run one than mess about with pressure sensors on a car.
Each step up of 5C usually doubles the CCS. I'm sure you can do the math to know a 0W will have a lower CCS at -20. Again I reiterate, this is fresh oil. Aged, contaminated oils have seen pour point movements of -42 to -6C due to a certain lack of additive robustness. This has seen many issues with frozen oils
Castrol 0W-30 and 40 GC and BC are all PAO
Each step up of 5C usually doubles the CCS. I'm sure you can do the math to know a 0W will have a lower CCS at -20. Again I reiterate, this is fresh oil. Aged, contaminated oils have seen pour point movements of -42 to -6C due to a certain lack of additive robustness. This has seen many issues with frozen oils
Castrol 0W-30 and 40 GC and BC are all PAO
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I know it's not provided but it's easier to run one than mess about with pressure sensors on a car.
It might be easier perhaps but ordering a CCS with a VOA is probably prohibitively expensive; no one has ever done it.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Each step up of 5C usually doubles the CCS. I'm sure you can do the math to know a 0W will have a lower CCS at -20.
The fact that it doesn't always double makes it an unreliable gauge particularly when comparing PAO and GP III oils which have different viscosity/temp' curves.
Yes I've done the math which is why you can't automatically assume with any certainty that a 0W will be lighter at -20C than a 5W oil if the 5W oil is significantly at 0C to start with.
Using the PP 5W-20 example vs GC 0W-30, PP is almost 20% lighter at 0C and has a low CCS @-30 of 4,080cP. Yes GC is going to be lighter at -35C but at what point between 0C and -35C does GC become lighter as the temp's drop from 0C. At best we can make a educated guess, but a guess is all it is. It's my opinion that PP should still be a bit lighter at -20C but without more information neither one of us knows for sure.
I know it's not provided but it's easier to run one than mess about with pressure sensors on a car.
It might be easier perhaps but ordering a CCS with a VOA is probably prohibitively expensive; no one has ever done it.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Each step up of 5C usually doubles the CCS. I'm sure you can do the math to know a 0W will have a lower CCS at -20.
The fact that it doesn't always double makes it an unreliable gauge particularly when comparing PAO and GP III oils which have different viscosity/temp' curves.
Yes I've done the math which is why you can't automatically assume with any certainty that a 0W will be lighter at -20C than a 5W oil if the 5W oil is significantly at 0C to start with.
Using the PP 5W-20 example vs GC 0W-30, PP is almost 20% lighter at 0C and has a low CCS @-30 of 4,080cP. Yes GC is going to be lighter at -35C but at what point between 0C and -35C does GC become lighter as the temp's drop from 0C. At best we can make a educated guess, but a guess is all it is. It's my opinion that PP should still be a bit lighter at -20C but without more information neither one of us knows for sure.
Anyone who carries out blend studies as part of engine oil development will run CCS on fresh oils.
CCS roughly doubles yes. I didn't mean it doesnt double everytime...
4000 at -30 will be ~8000 at -35C. Said 0W is 5800.
If we work back for -20C this would be 1000 for the 5W and ~750 for 0W.
Your point about not knowing about curves means you disagree with your view on VI too. Although don't confuse cP with cSt
CCS roughly doubles yes. I didn't mean it doesnt double everytime...
4000 at -30 will be ~8000 at -35C. Said 0W is 5800.
If we work back for -20C this would be 1000 for the 5W and ~750 for 0W.
Your point about not knowing about curves means you disagree with your view on VI too. Although don't confuse cP with cSt
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Each step up of 5C usually doubles the CCS. I'm sure you can do the math to know a 0W will have a lower CCS at -20.
The fact that it doesn't always double makes it an unreliable gauge particularly when comparing PAO and GP III oils which have different viscosity/temp' curves.
Yes I've done the math
Am very interested in the techniques that you use, particularly, as you state there is great disparity between what GrIII and IV do below freezing, making the usual Viscosity calculators worse than useless.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Each step up of 5C usually doubles the CCS. I'm sure you can do the math to know a 0W will have a lower CCS at -20.
The fact that it doesn't always double makes it an unreliable gauge particularly when comparing PAO and GP III oils which have different viscosity/temp' curves.
Yes I've done the math
Am very interested in the techniques that you use, particularly, as you state there is great disparity between what GrIII and IV do below freezing, making the usual Viscosity calculators worse than useless.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
3 HTHS oils really struggle to pass the BMW RNT wear test. I doubt a GF-5 oil protects the valvetronic system well enough.
Not that I don't trust you, quite the contrary, but do you have some reference documentation (links) on that, purely for education purpose?
So my guess that the HTHS minimum of 3.5 would be due to the design of the engine was correct?
From what I understand, the oil needs to still be above 3 at the end of the OCI in order to continue to protect the engine, therefore needs to be above 3.5 at the beginning, for the long interval that BMW wants.
3 HTHS oils really struggle to pass the BMW RNT wear test. I doubt a GF-5 oil protects the valvetronic system well enough.
Not that I don't trust you, quite the contrary, but do you have some reference documentation (links) on that, purely for education purpose?
So my guess that the HTHS minimum of 3.5 would be due to the design of the engine was correct?
From what I understand, the oil needs to still be above 3 at the end of the OCI in order to continue to protect the engine, therefore needs to be above 3.5 at the beginning, for the long interval that BMW wants.
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