cars remote keys killing people

[CharlieBauer]

On Lexus, I can personally say that the warning noises do seem inadequate. I was once in a rush and on the phone, leaving the car running when I came to a stop to transfer from the cars Bluetooth to the handset. Since my sequence of events was different, I forgot to turn the car off before exiting. I only realized there was a problem when I went to lock the car and didn't get the lock confirmation beeps. However, the locking error beep was on the gentle side and not that different from the confirmation beep.

My recollection when opening the door to leave the car with the engine running was that there was no audible warning at all or that it was not very prominent. In a garage, you might not lock the door at all so are relying on the first warning only. On the other hand, a car running in a garage is more noticeable than out in the open.

On my Mercedes, the warning is definitely visual. My recollection is that the audible part is again not that prominent (I need to check), but again, I have exited and only realized my mistake when trying to lock the car. I've never made the error when stopping inside the garage as in the garage it just seems more obvious that a car is running compared to not running. The locking error noise on my Mercedes is pretty noticeable and not as gentle as Lexus.

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: oldhp
This is easily fixed with a software change. Vehicle will idle for lets say 5 minutes. Time starts when seat belt is unhooked OR if no inputs are recognized within this period, then ECU shuts off engine. Simple.

This would have its own unintended consequences. If a person wants to keep the engine running, say, to keep warm in the winter or a mechanic doing performance checks, it would be irritating.


Or if you leave child in car sleeping as some parents do but should not. We do with car shut off however in moderate weather open windows and run FaceTime as video monitor for sleeping kid.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: E150GT
I’ve never had remote start but I can something happening that happens to me maybe. My key is in my pocket and all of a sudden as I’m washing dishes my horn is blaring. As I leaned against the cabinet I pressed the button long enough in my pocket to cause the panic to go off. It’s not been just a one time thing. I have to remove my keys from my pocket because it’s happened many times. Mostly at night while people are sleeping. I can see this kind of thing happening and maybe a car starting in the garage unknown to the owner.


I've done that with my Grand Marquis. My fix was to hang my keys on the "key hook" we put up in the hallway.

The Impala has remote start. To use it you must press and release the lock button, then immediately press and hold for two to four seconds the start button.
As someone else mentioned once the car is started it will only run for 10 minutes, unless you insert the key and turn it to on.

The only thing that works while the engine is running in "remote start" is the a/c or heater. You can't turn the steering wheel or move it from park unless the key is in.

 

[dparm]

Slow news day. 28 people are too stupid to know how a car works.

 

[KrisZ]

In the thread where a young kid trapped himself inside a Honda Odyssey and died, when I merely suggest d that he might've been trying to do something stupid, I never called him stupid, many came to his defence and blamed the manufacturer and that was a one recorded case.

Now we have quite a number of recorded cases of deaths and those that dieed are being called stupid. [censored] is wrong with people's morals.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Slow news day. 28 people are too stupid to know how a car works.


Originally Posted By: E150GT
I’ve never had remote start but I can something happening that happens to me maybe. My key is in my pocket and all of a sudden as I’m washing dishes my horn is blaring.

 

[Wolf359]

It's part of Mercedes Keyless Go. I have it, never forgot to shut the engine off. Must be people who just got it. It's rather quiet so you don't really hear the engine running. It does give you a warning, but it's just a display on the dash and some chiming noise.

This state requires carbon monoxide alarms, I don't think all states require it. I think anyone who parks in a garage should have one. But yes, there was a recommendation that it shut itself off after a half hour if it's just in idle. Car makers have been fighting it.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

This isn't new, although it might be getting more common. It started to be an issue when people began installing remote start systems (aftermarket) in vehicles, they work with any fuel-injected engine, so about 1990 and later. Here in Canada they are (or were) quite popular, so people could warm their cars and trucks in winter without going outside. Some people would use the remote garage door opener and start vehicles in the garage with the door open (which works fine).

But often enough for it to become a news story, it happened where kids playing with key fobs start the engine in the attached garage.

COx detector is the best insurance, and that applies to anyone who lives in a home with an attached garage, new car or antique beater, or any home with non-electric heating.

Sometimes there are clues in these news reports; half the cars in the NY example were Toyota/Lexus models. So there is something about these cars and how Toyota implements their start systems that makes it easier to have this happen. So a partial solution would be to figure that out, and then don't do it.

 

[tmorris1]

Look at the source of the story and it will tell you it is hyped or misleading. There are simple ways to keep the car from accidentally getting turned on or at least shut it off soon after. There is no need for laws to be passed that will further drive up the cost of cars. You can never idiot proof anything, they will just come up with a better idiot.

 

[grisby]

I usually back my cars into a spot and it will shut off on auto stop/start and will start up again up in park unless I shut it off BUT if I forget to shut off the vehicle it will shut off after 10 minutes if I forget to shut off. Only did that once when I first got the vehicle(forgot to shut off) but the timer does work. In fact sometimes I will open the door in reverse to check the parking lines because I don't like the vehicle cameras and if I open the door and its under 5 mph the car will shut off and go into park and when I close the door it starts again. Needless to say I hate the stop/start.


Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer

My mom left her 2018 Equinox running at work a month ago. It has the automatic start/stop system so when she got out, the engine was likely off, keys were in her pocket and she was probably distracted or something. A coworker told her that her car was still on within a short period of time so she walked outside and realized what she had done.


Nope. As soon as the vehicle is shifted to P, the engine restarts if it was auto-stopped. Auto-stop only happens when the trans selector is in D. Anything else will leave the engine running or start it back up.

 

[umungus1122]

Keep it simple. Use a key. Deaths avoided.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad

Sometimes there are clues in these news reports; half the cars in the NY example were Toyota/Lexus models. So there is something about these cars and how Toyota implements their start systems that makes it easier to have this happen. So a partial solution would be to figure that out, and then don't do it.


My wife's prius has the proximity keys. I washed mine accidentally and it started setting off the panic alarm so I took the battery out and now I have to stick it in the slot. Dropped wife off at the store (with her proximity key) then went to park; the "OMG lost key" light went nuts on the dash but I had plenty of time to stuff my own key in there. I imagine someone could pull into their garage, put the car in Park, leave it on, get out, and go deep inside their own house with the car still authorized to start and stop running as required. Some people even leave prii "Ready" in power outages, running invertors off the 12 V system and having it start and stop as needed.

My grandparents lived in a retirement condo where everything was on one floor for ease of wheelchairs, canes etc. The garage was immediately adjacent to the kitchen, seperated by only a man-door and a layer or two of sheetrock. I'm sure these condos were shoddily built to the lowest building code... without sprinklers, and likely, without CO detectors. Some piece of life-saving equipment ran on unregulated X-10 powerline modulation to notify the central office! Their opposite garage wall was shared with the neighbor too, so one idiot can gas two families.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: tmorris1
Look at the source of the story and it will tell you it is hyped or misleading. There are simple ways to keep the car from accidentally getting turned on or at least shut it off soon after. There is no need for laws to be passed that will further drive up the cost of cars. You can never idiot proof anything, they will just come up with a better idiot.


This is different that a remote start function. Keyless go on Mercedes requires you to hit the start button in the car in order for it to start. They didn't really implement a remote start feature til just a few years ago. Once the car is started, you have to hit the start/stop button in order to kill the ignition. It will not shut off on it's own. It's estimated that it will cost about $5 to update the firmware so that it shuts off if it's at idle for more than 30 minutes. I prefer the line "Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/busin...oxide-toll.html

(If you've hit the limit on the paywall, open it in an incognito window.)

 

[ffhdriver]

If you haven't read the owners manual and learned to read the dash to see if your car is running, I don't feel sorry for you.

 

[tmorris1]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: tmorris1
Look at the source of the story and it will tell you it is hyped or misleading. There are simple ways to keep the car from accidentally getting turned on or at least shut it off soon after. There is no need for laws to be passed that will further drive up the cost of cars. You can never idiot proof anything, they will just come up with a better idiot.


This is different that a remote start function. Keyless go on Mercedes requires you to hit the start button in the car in order for it to start. They didn't really implement a remote start feature til just a few years ago. Once the car is started, you have to hit the start/stop button in order to kill the ignition. It will not shut off on it's own. It's estimated that it will cost about $5 to update the firmware so that it shuts off if it's at idle for more than 30 minutes. I prefer the line "Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/busin...oxide-toll.html

(If you've hit the limit on the paywall, open it in an incognito window.)


I get the problem, but for the life of me I can't see how you could get out of a car in your garage and not realize that it is still running? If you can't hear it you probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.

 

[Rhymingmechanic]

I'm not what you would call an early adopter, but it's hard for me to see what problem is solved or benefit is gained by going from keys to keyless pushbutton start. Were ignition switches wearing out so often that this alternative is better?

Pushbutton start came up with the Toyota unintended acceleration cases, too. I remember a bunch of press about how to properly turn off the car, since it wasn't as intuitive as turning off a key.

At the very least, the system should be standardized across all makes and models. If people really want to push a button, automakers could go back to a keyed switch on the dash to turn the ignition on and then a button to start. Or maybe they could go the other way. "Alexa: Start the car. Alexa: Turn off the car.!"

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: tmorris1
I get the problem, but for the life of me I can't see how you could get out of a car in your garage and not realize that it is still running? If you can't hear it you probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.


A Mercedes is actually pretty quiet at idle. I just look at the tach to see if it's still running, sometimes you can't even hear it if it's noisy outside. Once you open the door, everything shuts off too, if the engine is still on, the dash would still be on and make noise. I think if you're alone, it probably doesn't happen, but if you're with other people, I can see people getting distracted. I did forget to lock my doors once when I was with someone else, normally I lock them all the time by habit. Thought about it afterwards and went back to check and yep they were unlocked.

Originally Posted By: Rhymingmechanic
I'm not what you would call an early adopter, but it's hard for me to see what problem is solved or benefit is gained by going from keys to keyless pushbutton start. Were ignition switches wearing out so often that this alternative is better?

Pushbutton start came up with the Toyota unintended acceleration cases, too. I remember a bunch of press about how to properly turn off the car, since it wasn't as intuitive as turning off a key.

At the very least, the system should be standardized across all makes and models. If people really want to push a button, automakers could go back to a keyed switch on the dash to turn the ignition on and then a button to start. Or maybe they could go the other way. "Alexa: Start the car. Alexa: Turn off the car.!"


The benefit is that you get to keep the keys in your pocket and save 2 seconds. You walk up to the car, stick your hand in the door handle and it automatically unlocks, get in the car and just hit the button once and it starts up, no need to even crack it, it cranks it the right amount to start it. You never end up starting it while the engine is running as it would just shut the car off instead of cranking it again. I belive most automakers just use one button, mine just say Engine - Start/Stop.

Basically no fishing around in your pocket for the keys and hitting the button. Also no need to put the key in the ignition. It's just a time saving luxury feature. Otherwise an expensive feature when it breaks, you should see what those door handles go for when they break. (About $300 as opposed to a regular door handle at $100).

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359

Basically no fishing around in your pocket for the keys and hitting the button. Also no need to put the key in the ignition. It's just a time saving luxury feature. Otherwise an expensive feature when it breaks, you should see what those door handles go for when they break. (About $300 as opposed to a regular door handle at $100).



These systems are fairly simple and reliable. The door handles will still work if the electronics fail, you'll just have to hit the unlock button on the remote like an "old fashioned" car. They also still have a key hole in case the battery dies.

 

[The motor guy]

I don't understand the purpose of push button start if you still need to have the key. What happens when you have the key sitting on your dresser and you drive off? Does the engine doe when you get too far from the key?

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
I don't understand the purpose of push button start if you still need to have the key. What happens when you have the key sitting on your dresser and you drive off? Does the engine doe when you get too far from the key?
In order to start a car with push button start, it must be inside of the vehicle. Someone standing in the doorway with the key while you're in the driver's seat won't work, they're pretty smart systems. They also don't let you lock the keys in the car.

But if you go out and start the car, go back inside and leave the key inside, when you go to drive the car away they'll usually beep like crazy and tell you the key fob has left the vehicle. It'll keep running until you turn it off.