Carbureted VS Fuel Injected
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My 1988 Mustang GT will run with just about any sensor unplugged, including the MAF. It won't run WELL but it will run.
Originally Posted By: labman
What I really loved were the old guys that gripped about knowing nothing about FI and leaving it alone. Not knowing what they were doing never stopped anybody from working on carbs.
HA! No kidding. And nothing stops the young kids now from farking around with their FI cars. And there's plenty you can do without having to reprogram the PCM (although, I'd bet that a PCM programmer is cheaper than a performance carburetor...). You can adjust the signals the various sensors send out to adjust the performance of the engine. The "downside" is that the computer will correct any errors- if you try to make the car run too lean or rich, it will try like heck to correct for that. Where a carb will gladly keep on chooglin' along with whatever you tell it.
There's NOTHING I don't miss about carburetors. Well, except cleaning them. Nothing more satisfying than getting a can of cleaner and getting all that gunk off of everything. Pulling all the vacuum lines and cleaning out their holes. I loved how well the cars ran after that!
Of course, you had to do that three times a year or the car would run like snot...
I guarantee you, the FI engine strands fewer people than carbed engines. Fewer still if they don't ignore the check engine light. The electronics in the fuel delivery area of the PCM are dead simple and there is almost nothing that can break them- it's more complicated to get the spark to fire than the injectors. I'm pretty sure they have enough redundancies where almost any one part can fail and you can still limp the car home.
Even if the incidence of roadside failures were the same or higher, they're still easier to diagnose and fix. Plug in a code reader and change the part it says. After all, a stranded car will have had a catastrophic failure of something, and the computer knows that. In a perfect world, the car would have an annunciator that showed more info about things, and alerted you as to the issue. It could say "no crank reference", you call AAA and tell them, and they dispatch a truck with a mechanic and a part and they fix it on the spot. They are getting there with the OnStar system.
(I fix computers/printers/servers for a living, and the higher end models have exactly these kinds of things. The user calls and says "my printer won't print, it says 50.1 error!" and I show up three hours later with a motor and they are back in action. Or, it could just say "FAIL" and I'd have to bring it to the shop, diagnose it with a meter, eventually find the problem, fix it, and charge them twice as much for longer downtime and less profit for me.)
When it comes down to more ethereal fixes, like "sensor XYZ out of range", you still have to apply the same fundamental knowledge and diagnostic skills you learned with carbed engines. To diagnose a carbed engine, you had to know how it worked. Well, to diagnose a FI engine, you have to know how it works too. Good example- I had a Ford Contour that had FOUR oxygen sensors. It started throwing a "cat efficiency below threshold" error of some kind. Now, what does that say? The rear sensor was seeing too much (or not enough) oxygen after the catalytic converter. How does it figure that? It compares its reading with the readings of the upstream sensors. That means that if the upstream sensors are wrong, it will be wrong too. Since gas mileage was down and the idle wasn't as smooth as before, I determined that the upstream sensors had actually gone "lazy" and were causing a false error. And changing those solved the problem.
No matter what the system is, you have to know how it works to be able to fix it. If you're not willing to roll with changes to systems, it's your own fault, not the technology's.
What I really loved were the old guys that gripped about knowing nothing about FI and leaving it alone. Not knowing what they were doing never stopped anybody from working on carbs.
HA! No kidding. And nothing stops the young kids now from farking around with their FI cars. And there's plenty you can do without having to reprogram the PCM (although, I'd bet that a PCM programmer is cheaper than a performance carburetor...). You can adjust the signals the various sensors send out to adjust the performance of the engine. The "downside" is that the computer will correct any errors- if you try to make the car run too lean or rich, it will try like heck to correct for that. Where a carb will gladly keep on chooglin' along with whatever you tell it.
There's NOTHING I don't miss about carburetors. Well, except cleaning them. Nothing more satisfying than getting a can of cleaner and getting all that gunk off of everything. Pulling all the vacuum lines and cleaning out their holes. I loved how well the cars ran after that!
Of course, you had to do that three times a year or the car would run like snot...
I guarantee you, the FI engine strands fewer people than carbed engines. Fewer still if they don't ignore the check engine light. The electronics in the fuel delivery area of the PCM are dead simple and there is almost nothing that can break them- it's more complicated to get the spark to fire than the injectors. I'm pretty sure they have enough redundancies where almost any one part can fail and you can still limp the car home.
Even if the incidence of roadside failures were the same or higher, they're still easier to diagnose and fix. Plug in a code reader and change the part it says. After all, a stranded car will have had a catastrophic failure of something, and the computer knows that. In a perfect world, the car would have an annunciator that showed more info about things, and alerted you as to the issue. It could say "no crank reference", you call AAA and tell them, and they dispatch a truck with a mechanic and a part and they fix it on the spot. They are getting there with the OnStar system.
(I fix computers/printers/servers for a living, and the higher end models have exactly these kinds of things. The user calls and says "my printer won't print, it says 50.1 error!" and I show up three hours later with a motor and they are back in action. Or, it could just say "FAIL" and I'd have to bring it to the shop, diagnose it with a meter, eventually find the problem, fix it, and charge them twice as much for longer downtime and less profit for me.)
When it comes down to more ethereal fixes, like "sensor XYZ out of range", you still have to apply the same fundamental knowledge and diagnostic skills you learned with carbed engines. To diagnose a carbed engine, you had to know how it worked. Well, to diagnose a FI engine, you have to know how it works too. Good example- I had a Ford Contour that had FOUR oxygen sensors. It started throwing a "cat efficiency below threshold" error of some kind. Now, what does that say? The rear sensor was seeing too much (or not enough) oxygen after the catalytic converter. How does it figure that? It compares its reading with the readings of the upstream sensors. That means that if the upstream sensors are wrong, it will be wrong too. Since gas mileage was down and the idle wasn't as smooth as before, I determined that the upstream sensors had actually gone "lazy" and were causing a false error. And changing those solved the problem.
No matter what the system is, you have to know how it works to be able to fix it. If you're not willing to roll with changes to systems, it's your own fault, not the technology's.
I never have been stranded by a carb car and I have been stranded twice by fuel injected cars . I am 55 years old so i have been driving a few years.
See, my experience is the opposite. I've never been stranded by an FI car, but have been stranded by a carbed car with carb issues.
Mom's '75 Cordoba left us in Louisville, KY due to carb issues. And my 66 Nova left me stranded as well, just not as far away from home.
I've had an ignition module failure leave me stranded as well, on my '79 Fairmont. Well, I was three blocks from home, so I walked home, changed clothes, walked another block to the AAP store that was close before it moved, bought a coil and ignition module, replaced them both and drove the car home.
Fortunately it was springtime. Fortunately I was close to home. This was my "airport car" and I was on my way home from the airport on a Saturday morning. I spent more on it parking at the airport than I did to buy the car, LOL.
Mom's '75 Cordoba left us in Louisville, KY due to carb issues. And my 66 Nova left me stranded as well, just not as far away from home.
I've had an ignition module failure leave me stranded as well, on my '79 Fairmont. Well, I was three blocks from home, so I walked home, changed clothes, walked another block to the AAP store that was close before it moved, bought a coil and ignition module, replaced them both and drove the car home.
Fortunately it was springtime. Fortunately I was close to home. This was my "airport car" and I was on my way home from the airport on a Saturday morning. I spent more on it parking at the airport than I did to buy the car, LOL.
The biggest issue to me is not the sensors (except maybe crank position sensor) which my 89 Caprice TBI car does not have, but the electric fuel pump in the tank that can fail with no warning, or have an electrical wiring problem to it. On my Caprice apparently the oil pressure sender will power the fuel pump as a backup to the fuel pump relay which was a common fail on Ford EFI in the 80's and early 90's. That makes me feel a bit more confident in my car but I would like to have a backup for the fuel pump. My other cars the fuel pump cost me $30 and is always changed as a regular maintenance item every few years. If it does fail it can be changed on the side of the road.
Another thing I've found is that EFI cars, especially the later ones seem more likely to get stranded due to a dead battery. The electrical system with the PCM and electric fuel pump, puts more draw on the battery when starting. It seems like they can go from starting fine one time to dead battery next time. My old junk starts to sound like the battery is tired, long before i let it strand me. It just has to get the engine to roll over a bit and it fires.
Another thing I've found is that EFI cars, especially the later ones seem more likely to get stranded due to a dead battery. The electrical system with the PCM and electric fuel pump, puts more draw on the battery when starting. It seems like they can go from starting fine one time to dead battery next time. My old junk starts to sound like the battery is tired, long before i let it strand me. It just has to get the engine to roll over a bit and it fires.
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Originally Posted By: javacontour
See, my experience is the opposite. I've never been stranded by an FI car, but have been stranded by a carbed car with carb issues.
Mom's '75 Cordoba left us in Louisville, KY due to carb issues. And my 66 Nova left me stranded as well, just not as far away from home.
I've had an ignition module failure leave me stranded as well, on my '79 Fairmont. Well, I was three blocks from home, so I walked home, changed clothes, walked another block to the AAP store that was close before it moved, bought a coil and ignition module, replaced them both and drove the car home.
Fortunately it was springtime. Fortunately I was close to home. This was my "airport car" and I was on my way home from the airport on a Saturday morning. I spent more on it parking at the airport than I did to buy the car, LOL.
That is an electronic failure
See, my experience is the opposite. I've never been stranded by an FI car, but have been stranded by a carbed car with carb issues.
Mom's '75 Cordoba left us in Louisville, KY due to carb issues. And my 66 Nova left me stranded as well, just not as far away from home.
I've had an ignition module failure leave me stranded as well, on my '79 Fairmont. Well, I was three blocks from home, so I walked home, changed clothes, walked another block to the AAP store that was close before it moved, bought a coil and ignition module, replaced them both and drove the car home.
Fortunately it was springtime. Fortunately I was close to home. This was my "airport car" and I was on my way home from the airport on a Saturday morning. I spent more on it parking at the airport than I did to buy the car, LOL.
That is an electronic failure
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: javacontour
See, my experience is the opposite. I've never been stranded by an FI car, but have been stranded by a carbed car with carb issues.
Mom's '75 Cordoba left us in Louisville, KY due to carb issues. And my 66 Nova left me stranded as well, just not as far away from home.
I've had an ignition module failure leave me stranded as well, on my '79 Fairmont. Well, I was three blocks from home, so I walked home, changed clothes, walked another block to the AAP store that was close before it moved, bought a coil and ignition module, replaced them both and drove the car home.
Fortunately it was springtime. Fortunately I was close to home. This was my "airport car" and I was on my way home from the airport on a Saturday morning. I spent more on it parking at the airport than I did to buy the car, LOL.
That is an electronic failure
Understand, I didn't make that clear.
I take it back, I've been stranded in an FI car as well, just not for FI issues. My 87 LeSabre lunched it's transmission in one case and jumped timing in another.
Seems I'm the only one able to break the GM 3.8L V6, LOL.
I've still never experienced an FI related failure.
But I've been stranded in cars fueled by both types of systems. Just not always for fuel system related issues.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
See, my experience is the opposite. I've never been stranded by an FI car, but have been stranded by a carbed car with carb issues.
Mom's '75 Cordoba left us in Louisville, KY due to carb issues. And my 66 Nova left me stranded as well, just not as far away from home.
I've had an ignition module failure leave me stranded as well, on my '79 Fairmont. Well, I was three blocks from home, so I walked home, changed clothes, walked another block to the AAP store that was close before it moved, bought a coil and ignition module, replaced them both and drove the car home.
Fortunately it was springtime. Fortunately I was close to home. This was my "airport car" and I was on my way home from the airport on a Saturday morning. I spent more on it parking at the airport than I did to buy the car, LOL.
That is an electronic failure
Understand, I didn't make that clear.
I take it back, I've been stranded in an FI car as well, just not for FI issues. My 87 LeSabre lunched it's transmission in one case and jumped timing in another.
Seems I'm the only one able to break the GM 3.8L V6, LOL.
I've still never experienced an FI related failure.
But I've been stranded in cars fueled by both types of systems. Just not always for fuel system related issues.
Fuel Injected any day of the week. Took my Dad 6 years before I got him away from pumping the gas on FI vehicles. He would tell me he had problems on the cars he was driving. When I was working on them I had no problem.
I had to re-train him.
He was just so used to carbs over the decades.
I had to re-train him.
He was just so used to carbs over the decades.
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