I don't trust the combination ADBV/bypass valve. Bypasses in filters may be rated anywhere from 6 to 30 or more psid, and I don't see how a little nitrile flapper is going to be calibrated for these different pressures. Maybe the feeling is that the bypass psid isn't all that important, I don't know. But I figure that the automobile manufacturers specify different psid's for a reason. Apart from that, nitrile tends to harden over time, which would change its operating parameters.
Can someone explain the ecore design?
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Originally Posted By: Stelth
I don't trust the combination ADBV/bypass valve. Bypasses in filters may be rated anywhere from 6 to 30 or more psid, and I don't see how a little nitrile flapper is going to be calibrated for these different pressures.
It's not the flapper that's calibrated, but the spring at the end of the can holding the flapper closed that's calibrated for the bypass pressure.
I don't trust the combination ADBV/bypass valve. Bypasses in filters may be rated anywhere from 6 to 30 or more psid, and I don't see how a little nitrile flapper is going to be calibrated for these different pressures.
It's not the flapper that's calibrated, but the spring at the end of the can holding the flapper closed that's calibrated for the bypass pressure.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Stelth
I don't trust the combination ADBV/bypass valve. Bypasses in filters may be rated anywhere from 6 to 30 or more psid, and I don't see how a little nitrile flapper is going to be calibrated for these different pressures.
It's not the flapper that's calibrated, but the spring at the end of the can holding the flapper closed that's calibrated for the bypass pressure.
I don't think so. Even though I've only been on BITOG a short time, I've cut open quite a few filters over the years. The "leaf spring" in many filters isn't a spring at all, but more of a rigid spacer. If you put it in the filter can and press on it, it doesn't move like a spring at all. If you remove it from the filter, you can bend it, unlike a spring. The Ecore literature doesn't say anything about a spring, either.
Originally Posted By: Stelth
I don't trust the combination ADBV/bypass valve. Bypasses in filters may be rated anywhere from 6 to 30 or more psid, and I don't see how a little nitrile flapper is going to be calibrated for these different pressures.
It's not the flapper that's calibrated, but the spring at the end of the can holding the flapper closed that's calibrated for the bypass pressure.
I don't think so. Even though I've only been on BITOG a short time, I've cut open quite a few filters over the years. The "leaf spring" in many filters isn't a spring at all, but more of a rigid spacer. If you put it in the filter can and press on it, it doesn't move like a spring at all. If you remove it from the filter, you can bend it, unlike a spring. The Ecore literature doesn't say anything about a spring, either.
Originally Posted By: Stelth
I don't think so. Even though I've only been on BITOG a short time, I've cut open quite a few filters over the years. The "leaf spring" in many filters isn't a spring at all, but more of a rigid spacer. If you put it in the filter can and press on it, it doesn't move like a spring at all. If you remove it from the filter, you can bend it, unlike a spring. The Ecore literature doesn't say anything about a spring, either.
I think you're right ... the spring in the end of the can is just to keep all the guts tight inside the can.
A rubber combination ADBV/bypass valve is also something that Purolator is trying to patented. There were a few threads on it a few months back. In the patented details, it talked and showed sketches of how the combo valve would work. It was all rubber combo valve action that came into play. A high PSID is supposed to make the rubber combo valve open up and bypass the oil.
Do a search for the threads here on this site, or go search the internet for panted US 2009/0178964 A1.
Here's a quick search result. You can download the PDF for free and see all the details of the design.
http://ip.com/patapp/US20090178964
Here's a result showing some other oil filter related patents:
http://ip.com/usapp-ncl-210-130.html
Here's a base end bypass valve design by Baldwin that uses some kind of spring mechanism:
http://ip.com/patapp/US20100282652
I don't think so. Even though I've only been on BITOG a short time, I've cut open quite a few filters over the years. The "leaf spring" in many filters isn't a spring at all, but more of a rigid spacer. If you put it in the filter can and press on it, it doesn't move like a spring at all. If you remove it from the filter, you can bend it, unlike a spring. The Ecore literature doesn't say anything about a spring, either.
I think you're right ... the spring in the end of the can is just to keep all the guts tight inside the can.
A rubber combination ADBV/bypass valve is also something that Purolator is trying to patented. There were a few threads on it a few months back. In the patented details, it talked and showed sketches of how the combo valve would work. It was all rubber combo valve action that came into play. A high PSID is supposed to make the rubber combo valve open up and bypass the oil.
Do a search for the threads here on this site, or go search the internet for panted US 2009/0178964 A1.
Here's a quick search result. You can download the PDF for free and see all the details of the design.
http://ip.com/patapp/US20090178964
Here's a result showing some other oil filter related patents:
http://ip.com/usapp-ncl-210-130.html
Here's a base end bypass valve design by Baldwin that uses some kind of spring mechanism:
http://ip.com/patapp/US20100282652
You two need to think about it logically.
Look at the combination set up on the e-core, then try to work out how it can do both jobs. ADBC is easy, and conventional.
The bypass has to be accessed through the inner row of holes pushing on the centre of the rubber assembly, and moving it towards the closed cap...otherwise there IS NO bypass path.
Only way for that to happen is for the whole core assembly to move towards the cap...only way for that to happen is to act on the end spring...which CAN be made differently for different pressure requirements.
Look at the combination set up on the e-core, then try to work out how it can do both jobs. ADBC is easy, and conventional.
The bypass has to be accessed through the inner row of holes pushing on the centre of the rubber assembly, and moving it towards the closed cap...otherwise there IS NO bypass path.
Only way for that to happen is for the whole core assembly to move towards the cap...only way for that to happen is to act on the end spring...which CAN be made differently for different pressure requirements.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
You two need to think about it logically.
Look at the combination set up on the e-core, then try to work out how it can do both jobs. ADBC is easy, and conventional.
The bypass has to be accessed through the inner row of holes pushing on the centre of the rubber assembly, and moving it towards the closed cap...otherwise there IS NO bypass path.
Only way for that to happen is for the whole core assembly to move towards the cap...only way for that to happen is to act on the end spring...which CAN be made differently for different pressure requirements.
That kind of makes sense, except that the "spring" isn't a spring at all. It's a piece of stamped sheet metal, and pretty soft at that. It is not at all springy and can easily be bent by hand when it's out of the can. When it's inside the can, with its edges against the outside of the can, it's rigid and doesn't compress.
Besides that, if the media becomes completely clogged, you will have approximately equal pressure on the media itself, as well as the top of the filter core. You don't just have pressure at the base.
In fact, I went out and took another look at an ecore that I cut open recently, and I'm convinced that I now understand how the combination ADBV/bypass works. On the underside of the ADBV, there is a bevel on the inner edge. When the pressure gets too high, it pushes this bevel aside, allowing oil to bypass. I can even see how this could be "tuned" somewhat to higher or lower operating pressures. If the ADBV were silicon instead of nitrile, I might feel a little more enthusiastic.
You two need to think about it logically.
Look at the combination set up on the e-core, then try to work out how it can do both jobs. ADBC is easy, and conventional.
The bypass has to be accessed through the inner row of holes pushing on the centre of the rubber assembly, and moving it towards the closed cap...otherwise there IS NO bypass path.
Only way for that to happen is for the whole core assembly to move towards the cap...only way for that to happen is to act on the end spring...which CAN be made differently for different pressure requirements.
That kind of makes sense, except that the "spring" isn't a spring at all. It's a piece of stamped sheet metal, and pretty soft at that. It is not at all springy and can easily be bent by hand when it's out of the can. When it's inside the can, with its edges against the outside of the can, it's rigid and doesn't compress.
Besides that, if the media becomes completely clogged, you will have approximately equal pressure on the media itself, as well as the top of the filter core. You don't just have pressure at the base.
In fact, I went out and took another look at an ecore that I cut open recently, and I'm convinced that I now understand how the combination ADBV/bypass works. On the underside of the ADBV, there is a bevel on the inner edge. When the pressure gets too high, it pushes this bevel aside, allowing oil to bypass. I can even see how this could be "tuned" somewhat to higher or lower operating pressures. If the ADBV were silicon instead of nitrile, I might feel a little more enthusiastic.
Simple; Just buy a WIX/PUROLATOR CLASSIC/PURE ONE
Originally Posted By: Stelth
In fact, I went out and took another look at an ecore that I cut open recently, and I'm convinced that I now understand how the combination ADBV/bypass works. On the underside of the ADBV, there is a bevel on the inner edge. When the pressure gets too high, it pushes this bevel aside, allowing oil to bypass. I can even see how this could be "tuned" somewhat to higher or lower operating pressures. If the ADBV were silicon instead of nitrile, I might feel a little more enthusiastic.
Better to have one in the hand than trying to make sense of drawings (advertising drawings at that)...your explanation makes sense...so does the bypass oil enter that inner ring of holes and bypass the lot ?
In fact, I went out and took another look at an ecore that I cut open recently, and I'm convinced that I now understand how the combination ADBV/bypass works. On the underside of the ADBV, there is a bevel on the inner edge. When the pressure gets too high, it pushes this bevel aside, allowing oil to bypass. I can even see how this could be "tuned" somewhat to higher or lower operating pressures. If the ADBV were silicon instead of nitrile, I might feel a little more enthusiastic.
Better to have one in the hand than trying to make sense of drawings (advertising drawings at that)...your explanation makes sense...so does the bypass oil enter that inner ring of holes and bypass the lot ?
Originally Posted By: Shannow
You two need to think about it logically.
Look at the combination set up on the e-core, then try to work out how it can do both jobs. ADBC is easy, and conventional.
The bypass has to be accessed through the inner row of holes pushing on the centre of the rubber assembly, and moving it towards the closed cap...otherwise there IS NO bypass path.
Only way for that to happen is for the whole core assembly to move towards the cap...only way for that to happen is to act on the end spring...which CAN be made differently for different pressure requirements.
If you would go look at this patent design like I tried to show earlier, you would see exactly how a combo ADBV/BP valve works.
Click on the "PDF Download" link on the "Options" box to see it all. Like I said, the whole guts of the filer does not move ... the rubber combo valve's "sealing lip" (that prevents bypass flow) flexes and opens up a bypass path when the PSID gets to a certain point. You're "theorizing" on how they work, and it's not correct.
http://ip.com/patapp/US20090178964
Read sections [060] thru [063] which is the text that goes with Figures 9a thru 9d. It describes it in detail.
You two need to think about it logically.
Look at the combination set up on the e-core, then try to work out how it can do both jobs. ADBC is easy, and conventional.
The bypass has to be accessed through the inner row of holes pushing on the centre of the rubber assembly, and moving it towards the closed cap...otherwise there IS NO bypass path.
Only way for that to happen is for the whole core assembly to move towards the cap...only way for that to happen is to act on the end spring...which CAN be made differently for different pressure requirements.
If you would go look at this patent design like I tried to show earlier, you would see exactly how a combo ADBV/BP valve works.
Click on the "PDF Download" link on the "Options" box to see it all. Like I said, the whole guts of the filer does not move ... the rubber combo valve's "sealing lip" (that prevents bypass flow) flexes and opens up a bypass path when the PSID gets to a certain point. You're "theorizing" on how they work, and it's not correct.
http://ip.com/patapp/US20090178964
Read sections [060] thru [063] which is the text that goes with Figures 9a thru 9d. It describes it in detail.
Hey, Shannow, and others, here's a pic where I think you can really see how it works.
The inner, beveled, ring is the bypass. The inner ring of holes on the baseplate is very close to this inner bevel. Then, of course you can see the ADBV around the outside. The ADBV portion is considerably thinner, and also has considerably more surface area for the oil pressure to operate on. The baseplate also has much more area for the oil to flow toward the ADBV. The tendency, therefore, will be for the oil to push the ADBV portion out of the way and flow through the filter as long as this is the path of least resistance.
When the oil isn't able to flow as well as it should along the desired path, for instance if the filter material becomes clogged, the differential pressure increases, i.e., the pressure on the "clean" side begins to drop, the oil is then able to force its way past the bypass bevel which is able to flex inward toward the clean side.
I think it's an ingenious design, but I don't like the execution. I'm not sure what will happen as the nitrile rubber hardens. Also, like others, I think the spacing of the nylon cage is too wide. There's a picture referenced somewhere in this thread that shows a filter where a piece apparently blew out into the clean side. That's scary. I think that they're probably OK for relatively short OCI's, but I still don't think I'll use them anymore, especially when I can get a Motorcraft FL820s for under four bucks.
The inner, beveled, ring is the bypass. The inner ring of holes on the baseplate is very close to this inner bevel. Then, of course you can see the ADBV around the outside. The ADBV portion is considerably thinner, and also has considerably more surface area for the oil pressure to operate on. The baseplate also has much more area for the oil to flow toward the ADBV. The tendency, therefore, will be for the oil to push the ADBV portion out of the way and flow through the filter as long as this is the path of least resistance.
When the oil isn't able to flow as well as it should along the desired path, for instance if the filter material becomes clogged, the differential pressure increases, i.e., the pressure on the "clean" side begins to drop, the oil is then able to force its way past the bypass bevel which is able to flex inward toward the clean side.
I think it's an ingenious design, but I don't like the execution. I'm not sure what will happen as the nitrile rubber hardens. Also, like others, I think the spacing of the nylon cage is too wide. There's a picture referenced somewhere in this thread that shows a filter where a piece apparently blew out into the clean side. That's scary. I think that they're probably OK for relatively short OCI's, but I still don't think I'll use them anymore, especially when I can get a Motorcraft FL820s for under four bucks.
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
I always used a/c delco but i stopped the day i saw it changed to e core..
absolutely no e cores on my engines or the engines we build i dont like them at all
My thoughts exactly!!
I always used a/c delco but i stopped the day i saw it changed to e core..
absolutely no e cores on my engines or the engines we build i dont like them at all
My thoughts exactly!!
I am skeptical of any design where the primary objectives seem to have been:
1) Cheaper to make!
and
2) Fits more applications per part number than our old design did!
1) Cheaper to make!
and
2) Fits more applications per part number than our old design did!
FWIW, I have used a handful of AC Delco PF47 e-core filters on a 3800(II)motor in my parent's Buick. The have all done fine, and I have no problems to report. The 283K mile motor got a new e-core yesterday and some fresh Havoline 5w30... OCI ~5K.
Originally Posted By: DavidZ28
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
I always used a/c delco but i stopped the day i saw it changed to e core..
absolutely no e cores on my engines or the engines we build i dont like them at all
My thoughts exactly!!
+1.
I usually used AC/Delco on my Chevy. When they switched, I did too, because I could never find the PF52CL...the old design...locally.
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
I always used a/c delco but i stopped the day i saw it changed to e core..
absolutely no e cores on my engines or the engines we build i dont like them at all
My thoughts exactly!!
+1.
I usually used AC/Delco on my Chevy. When they switched, I did too, because I could never find the PF52CL...the old design...locally.
Several years ago, I used ST e-cores pretty frequently on my Volvo without any issues(I did examine the old filters for shifting media before discarding them). Then again, my 3-4k OCIs were only 8wks apart and the ol' Volvo really doesn't make media-blowing oil pressure.
I'm not a fan of Ecore, but I don't know it's a motor destroyer... unless it's driven hard. My thought is... There's better filters for the same money, so go get one of those.
Extremely
Cheap
Oil filter
Ruins
Engines
Found
Ruining
A
Motor
Ok, no more acronyms.
Extremely
Cheap
Oil filter
Ruins
Engines
Found
Ruining
A
Motor
Ok, no more acronyms.
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