California rolls out income based electric bills

[wings&wheels]

.... should take a hard look at yourself. Somehow people like yourself....

Since you took this towards the personal. Little bit about me; I grew up at one end of your scenario and worked to the other. Basically lower middle class, a tenement rat, in a dead mill city w/ the worse school system in the State to the Exec suite...at a 'Vampiric' company that provided me with a very good living, but with a lot of sacrifice in between, and I did have some luck. Two things I never had though: senses of entitlement or envy...both are toxic.

 

[Pablo]

This has never been true. Enough with the nonsense "pull yourself up by the bootstraps". The world is a different place than when you were a kid/young adult, it's not as easy as it was then and it wasn't easy then either. You know what people in Germany, UK, France, Japan, Korea, hell even Brazil don't have to worry about? Going to the doctor and owing thousands of dollars in medical bills. Also you know what they don't have to worry about? Getting laid off and worrying about how they'll feed their family while they look for a new job. The lack of humanity and compassion towards other people on display is really sad sometimes.

What?

Look at Seattle. They give all kinds of stuff away. Yet more and more homeless. The loafers, drug addicts and criminals come to Seattle and Bellingham for free stuff. No strings attached.

Compassion? True compassion is helping people be successful not some silly dreamland.

And I never have been given anything for free. I worked my ass off my whole life. People now just make excuses. Not all people of course but many do.

 

[K.Aoi]

Let's expand on this entire philosophical concept here ...

If we accept that it's OK to charge richer people more money (because they simply have more of a commodity than someone else), then can we push that mantra into other things? Where does it end?
- If you agree that electricty delivery rates should be tiered based on personal income, then why not also the water delivery rates? And the sewage rates? And the trash disposal should have tiered rates?
- If you have more money, you should have to pay a higher tax rate in your school system, so they can build a bigger and better football field
- We probably should pay for postage based on personal income level too; a first-class stamp for a rich person should cost $3 but only $.50 for a poor person, all for the same first-class postage when you both mail in your payment on your tiered CA electric bill ...
- why don't we charge a higher rate for property taxes when you own more land? (up to 1 acre = Rate 1; up to 2 ac = Rate 2; up to 3ac at Rate 3, etc) - If you have more land, you can certainly afford to pay a higher property tax rate, right? If you own 1.1 acres and your nextdoor neighbor has .97 acres, it's fair for you to pay a higher property tax rate, right?


Not only should this work in the public sector, but it should extend into the private sector also ...
- when you order Domino's and they drive to your neighbor's house and charge $X for delivery, but charge you $X+Y for delivery, because you make more money than your neighbor, even though the delivery driver drove the same distance to park on the same spot on the street ... You should pay more because you make more, right?
- When you buy tires for your F150, you should pay a higher tire-tax for the brand and model of P265 tires as they guy who just put the exact same tires on his F150, because you can pay more, so you should pay more taxes on the identical product
- when you roll into Kroger to get your weekly foods for home, you should pay a higher sales tax rate for your eggs and milk and butter and bread because you make more money


There is always someone richer and poorer than you. You can find disparity everywhere in life. Trying to even the playing field by manipulating tax rates does not create excellence; it dilutes the efforts of all. Taxing rich people at higher rates encourages them to move elsewhere (taking their money with them), which means that pool of money you wanted to tap into is gone. Giving money to poor people does not incentivize them to excell or improve; it motivates them to do less.

Fair" used to be based on a concept of unbiased opportunity; everyone had the same chance to excel at something they were good at. Somehow, somewhere along the way, that word "fair" has become bastardized into meaning a gauranteed result no matter what happens.

Anyone who's had more than one child should try this at home ...
Hey Johnny, we know you've worked hard at mowing lawns after school while your twin brother Tommy played basketball with his buddies. But your brother Tommy is sad because he cannot afford to buy a nice bike like you bought with your hard earned money. So we're going to take some of your money and give it to your brother; it's only "fair" ... you've got more money that he does. Will Tommy be happy? Sure - he's getting a great deal. Is Johnny happy? Not in the least, and he's unlikely to continue to mow lawns if he's going to be "taxed" at a different rate.

So here's the thing. You may find it hard to believe, but rich people and big companies ALREADY receive absolutely enormous subsidies from government at all levels. Tax breaks for companies to build in your city/state. Buybacks which allow companies to pay their executives less salary but they still make beaucoup bucks from their stock options- which they can manipulate by spending profits on stock buybacks which drive up stock prices. Stock buybacks are legalized stock manipulation. The whole Amazon HQ2 competition debacle was truly a work of art in how disgusting it was, cities all over the place literally trying to throw money at Amazon to have them build in their area. That's penalizing success? In what world? They're being rewarded for no reason. Cities can barely afford to keep streets paved these days, and they're offering multi billion dollar tax incentives? That's okay but making sure people don't literally starve to death or end up homeless is a step too far?

My guy, the entire system in this country today is carefully designed to funnel money upwards while convincing you that there isn't enough to go around for everyone else, distracting you so that you blame poor people for the problems in the country while they buy yet another yacht. I don't know how else to explain this in a way you'll accept. In this country, since the 1800s and earlier, poor people have been blamed for pretty much all of society's ills, but the rich continue to get richer, extracting capital from the rest of us and funneling it upwards. Companies used to operate under a "make reasonable profit but be good corporate citizens" idea, but then a guy named Friedman came along a few decades ago and convined corporate America that the only thing companies should care about is "Delivering value to shareholders". There is no legal requirement for that, by the way. And CEOs/executives in particular benefit because they only stay at companies a few years, and their compensation is almost entirely tied to stock performance. So they focus on short-term quarter to quarter profits at the expensive of long term sustainability in the name of making themselves more money before jumping off the sinking ship they created.

 

[dnewton3]

... The lack of humanity and compassion towards other people on display is really sad sometimes.

Do not confuse the concept of compassion and selflessness with the operational mantra of public services.

Compassion and giving are fine for individuals and entities (churches, corporations, philanthropic groups) which WILLINGLY participate in such endeavors. I believe these to be noble and worth things. But they are to be voluntary and not compulsary. It is not "charity" to relieve some of their hard earned rewards only so you can hand it to others.

Public utilities and other government entities are NOT entitled to take MY MONEY and GIVE IT TO OTHERS in the form of veiled tax rate differentials.


Compassion, charity, love, etc ... these are all gifts that should be shared willingly, not stolen and redistributed.

You have every right to be appalled at someone's lack of giving.
And they have every right to be appalled at your sense of entitlement redistribution to others.

 

[K.Aoi]

What?

Look at Seattle. They give all kinds of stuff away. Yet more and more homeless. They loafers, drug addicts and criminals come to Seattle and Bellingham for free stuff. No strings attached.

Compassion? True compassion is helping people be successful not some silly dreamland.

Seattle has problems, most of which are because NIMBYs will not let enough housing be constructed. Same issue in California. There is not enough housing, and more housing cannot be built because the "haves" don't want the "have nots" from being in their neighborhood. NIMBYism is a rampant disease of this country. Get rid of the homeless but don't build homeless shelters or housing for homeless people because we could give that money to a big developer as a tax incentive instead who will build more million dollar condos that aren't needed. California has been fighting NIMBYism for years. So has Seattle and other big cities. But you don't want to help people be successful either, stop spouting that platitude. You don't want college to be free. How exactly are you "helping them be successful" by making it so they literally cannot afford school, and also have to work to survive. What is the ladder there? You say that compassion is helping them be successful, then tell me right now, in concrete terms, what exactly you and people who think like you are doing to help make them successful?

Because as far as I can see, the answer is not a thing.

 

[dnewton3]

So here's the thing. You may find it hard to believe, but rich people and big companies ALREADY receive absolutely enormous subsidies from government at all levels. Tax breaks for companies to build in your city/state.

I am 100% on board with eliminating ALL subsidies from ALL things; completely eliminate them and level the playing field.
No subsidies for industries.
No property tax breaks for luring in businesses.
None of it.

 

[K.Aoi]

Do not confuse the concept of compassion and selflessness with the operational mantra of public services.

Compassion and giving are fine for individuals and entities (churches, corporations, philanthropic groups) which WILLINGLY participate in such endeavors. I believe these to be noble and worth things. But they are to be voluntary and not compulsary. It is not "charity" to relieve some of their hard earned rewards only so you can hand it to others.

Public utilities and other government entities are NOT entitled to take MY MONEY and GIVE IT TO OTHERS in the form of veiled tax rate differentials.


Compassion, charity, love, etc ... these are all gifts that should be shared willingly, not stolen and redistributed.

You have every right to be appalled at someone's lack of giving.
And they have every right to be appalled at your sense of entitlement redistribution to others.

Except that assumes that people are philanthropic and care about giving. And from what I've seen here, nobody does, because that would mean caring about other people. Corporations are not philanthropic, ever. They may give a little bit for good marketing but don't fall for the lies. If people were giving enough money, we wouldn't have homeless and poverty problems. Clearly people aren't doing enough voluntarily. And since we live in a society, it then falls on the powers that be to do what they can, even if it means forcing you to maybe eat out at olive garden a few less times a month.

 

[K.Aoi]

I am 100% on board with eliminating ALL subsidies from ALL things; completely eliminate them and level the playing field.
No subsidies for industries.
No property tax breaks for luring in businesses.
None of it.

Great to hear it, something we can agree on. How do you feel about forcing Churches, Synagogues, and other places of religious worship to also pay the property taxes they've been getting exempted on for hundreds of years?

 

[MrStamper]

What?

Look at Seattle. They give all kinds of stuff away. Yet more and more homeless. The loafers, drug addicts and criminals come to Seattle and Bellingham for free stuff. No strings attached.

Compassion? True compassion is helping people be successful not some silly dreamland.

And I never have been given anything for free. I worked my ass off my whole life. People now just make excuses. Not all people of course but many do.

Come to Portland, Oregon….hell on earth.

 

[K.Aoi]

Come to Portland, Oregon….hell on earth.

Drug addiction and mental illness. Neither of which anybody wants to spend public money on to resolve, and again NIMBYism at it's finest. So nothing ever happens and you get situations like Oregon and Seattle.

 

[Pablo]

Seattle has problems, most of which are because NIMBYs will not let enough housing be constructed. Same issue in California. There is not enough housing, and more housing cannot be built because the "haves" don't want the "have nots" from being in their neighborhood. NIMBYism is a rampant disease of this country. Get rid of the homeless but don't build homeless shelters or housing for homeless people because we could give that money to a big developer as a tax incentive instead who will build more million dollar condos that aren't needed. California has been fighting NIMBYism for years. So has Seattle and other big cities. But you don't want to help people be successful either, stop spouting that platitude. You don't want college to be free. How exactly are you "helping them be successful" by making it so they literally cannot afford school, and also have to work to survive. What is the ladder there? You say that compassion is helping them be successful, then tell me right now, in concrete terms, what exactly you and people who think like you are doing to help make them successful?

Because as far as I can see, the answer is not a **** thing.

Load of garbage. Rental owners and developers could build. Zoning issues, not NIMBY. And rent control has people running away from wanting to build and own.

Nope, it's people from all over congregating for drugs crime and free stuff. Wake up.

 

[MrStamper]

This has never been true. Enough with the nonsense "pull yourself up by the bootstraps". The world is a different place than when you were a kid/young adult, it's not as easy as it was then and it wasn't easy then either. You know what people in Germany, UK, France, Japan, Korea, hell even Brazil don't have to worry about? Going to the doctor and owing thousands of dollars in medical bills. Also you know what they don't have to worry about? Getting laid off and worrying about how they'll feed their family while they look for a new job. The lack of humanity and compassion towards other people on display is really sad sometimes.

It’s very easy to be compassionate with other people’s money. Be compassionate with your own money. Take a dollar out of YOUR pocket and help out. Don’t vote for the government to take a dollar out of MY pocket to help out.

 

[K.Aoi]

Load of garbage. Rental owners and developers could build. Zoning issues, not NIMBY. And rent control has people running away from wanting to build and own.

Nope, it's people from all over congregating for drugs crime and free stuff. Wake up.

No, it's really NIMBYism. Really. https://calmatters.org/housing/2022/04/duplex-housing-resistance/

This isn't make believe. This is happening everywhere and it's particularly pervasive in California. Powerful citizen groups almost entirely formed by wealthier people repeatedly sue cities, fill city boards to sue the state, anytime anyone tries to build anything that, again might harm their property values. Or "change the character of the neighborhood", or "block the view from my porch". You might find it hard to believe because the news sources you follow don't ever cover it, but this has been a challenge in cities and CA for decades. Why do you think housing is so hard to find in San Francisco for instance? It's not because of a lack of demand, it's because nobody can build ANYTHING without getting smacked with lawsuits.

California housing laws prompt dueling housing lawsuits

HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. (AP) — California's attempts at forcing its wealthy coastal cities to build more affordable housing spawned two lawsuits on Thursday, showcasing tensions around solving a crisis that has contributed to a surge in the homeless population in the nation's most populous state.

apnews.com

 

[dnewton3]

Except that assumes that people are philanthropic and care about giving. And from what I've seen here, nobody does, because that would mean caring about other people.

There are millions of folks who give to the Red Cross, their local churches, etc ... You're diluted if you think there's no charity at the personal level.

Corporations are not philanthropic, ever.

I don't think you have any sense of reality here. Huge coroprations give away millions of dollars annually. Small companies give out money also. Again - I don't know what level of Hades you live in, but the rest of the world does have significant charity.

people aren't doing enough voluntarily. And since we live in a society, it then falls on the powers that be to do what they can, even if it means forcing you to maybe eat out at olive garden a few less times a month.

So rather than allow people to determine what is "doing enough" for charity themselves, you want some overlord to make that decision for them ...
Yup - we are at odds and I will NEVER believe what you believe.

 

[K.Aoi]

It’s very easy to be compassionate with other people’s money. Be compassionate with your own money. Take a dollar out of YOUR pocket and help out. Don’t vote for the government to take a dollar out of MY pocket to help out.

Sorry my guy, but I will do exactly that, every time. And I'll be more than happy to pay those additional taxes myself.

 

[Pablo]

It’s very easy to be compassionate with other people’s money. Be compassionate with your own money. Take a dollar out of YOUR pocket and help out. Don’t vote for the government to take a dollar out of MY pocket to help out.

The gov (non) way makes people FEEL less guilty and only makes the problem worse

 

[MrStamper]

Drug addiction and mental illness. Neither of which anybody wants to spend public money on to resolve, and again NIMBYism at its finest. So nothing ever happens and you get situations like Oregon and Seattle.

yeah let’s just ignore the failed policies in these certain cities that are causing it…

 

[K.Aoi]

There are millions of folks who give to the Red Cross, their local churches, etc ... You're diluted if you think there's no charity at the personal level.


I don't think you have any sense of reality here. Huge coroprations give away millions of dollars annually. Small companies give out money also. Again - I don't know what level of Hades you live in, but the rest of the world does have significant charity.


So rather than allow people to determine what is "doing enough" for charity themselves, you want some overlord to make that decision for them ...
Yup - we are at odds and I will NEVER believe what you believe.

"The rest of the world" has laws and policies that provide social safety nets we do not have. Universal healthcare. Here, we have for-profit insurance companies who's sole interest is to fill executive and shareholder pockets. We have deductibles. My German friends literally did not know what a deductible was because it doesn't exist.


And fortunately, most people my age and younger largely believe as I do, and in another 10-15 years I believe we'll see a major shift in how social problems like these are treated.

 

[K.Aoi]

yeah let’s just ignore the failed policies in these certain cities that are causing it…

Or let's ignore the people that fight any policy that might help because they don't want to pay any taxes to deal with those problems (or again, NIMBYs who don't want shelters/treatment centers opened in their neighborhoods). And then point to it failing and says "see look government doesn't work. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Please point to the policies those cities have that are "causing" the problems."

 

[97prizm]

Ridiculous......will be fought, and should be defeated.

Yep just like the old timers in my neighborhood. Years ago they had a flat water fee and more or less had golf course lawns while everyone else was watering just enough.