Buy a Volt so they can justify their job

[nthach]

LG and Samsung SDI are small fish in the worldwide Li-Ion/Polymer cell market compared to the Chinese OEMs(Simplo, GP, Amperex - 2 of them are OEM suppliers to Apple), Sony, Sanyo and Panasonic. LG and Samsung don't even make their own cells for their cell phones even, they buy from the Japanese 3 or the Chinese and assemble them in Korea in house or have a company like DynaPack in Taiwan/China handle the assembly.

Ford currently sources their NiMHs from Sanyo, while Toyota/Honda/GM go through Panasonic EV.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I totally agree Justin. Although the Prius was kind of a niche car when it came out, the Volt is much more of a niche car, especially the price.


The Prius is mainstream now....but who will pony up another $15k for a Volt when the Prius is a proven car. People who buy Hybrids are mostly doing to cut costs. You can buy a lot of fuel/maintanance/parts for a Prius with the $15k difference.


I dissagree that most that buy the Prius do so to "cut costs". IMO most who buy the Prius are willing to pay more in order to serve a greater good that they themselves perceive as "valuable" The math behind the ROI when gas is below $3 a gallon makes most hybrids a good way to waste money, not save it. But like I said, this isn't a money decision, it's a "world view" decision.

There will be people who line up to buy the Volt, regardless of what a bad economic decision it is. A lot of people buy cars for how they make them "feel" or how the world will perceive them. Just like some of us like the feel and power of a huge V8, others are attracted to the smug feeling they get because they "do more" for the planet or they aren't bothered by the added costs associated with being on the bleeding edge of "better" newer technology.

 

[DeeAgeaux]

Originally Posted By: JustinH
My only gripe about the car is the price tag. When this comes down to sub 20k, they will have a winner on their hands.

Toyota still has them beat, even ford and honda's hybrids are a better value.

With gas costs what they are (sub $3), this car makes sense only as a status symbol for someone.

A gas powered Yaris, Corolla seems to be the best value in economy cars right now, by a long mile.


A cheaper car is a better value 95% of the time.

A frugal sub-compact is a better value than Prius yet Prius sells very well.

A Honda Fit is much easier on the wallet in regards to total cost.


80% of Volt buyers have already decided to buy a Volt regardless of the actual numbers.

Car buying is an emotinal decision not a rational one for 90% of people.

Rich hippies and a few right-wing anti-oil hawks want to demonstrate to the entire world how comitted they are to their cause. A Volt is a rolling billboard for that.

At full ramp up GM wants to sell 60K 1st Gen Volts.

The car will be a sellout at those numbers.

Gen II Price must come down for average upper middle class folks to buy in.

And it 6 years or so the price of advanced batteries will almost certainl come down.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Originally Posted By: nthach
The Volt's is the best answer Detroit has for the Prius - brilliant idea but flawed execution.

Besides when people think Chevy - they think trucks, SUVs, and muscle cars.

And it's going to the first car with a Li-Ion battery pack besides the Orion VII NG Hybrid transit bus in NYC, and from I read the newer buses with Li-based batteries than Orion/BAE's standard lead-acid traction battery packs are spontaneously catching on fire.


Yeah, but think how much those batteries get used.....I can't see a Pi or Volt being used that much non stop....

Transit buses and taxicabs have similar driving patterns - LOTS of stop and go. With that said, even though San Francisco is hilly and steep in some areas, the Prius/Camry/Altima/Highlander/Escape Hybrids do just fine here. MUNI bought a few of those Orion VII hybrid buses, I'm not that impressed them with them - think a Civic Hybrid on steroids. I'm surprised SF isn't having the same issues NYC is. They should have bought a GM/Allison hybrid system bus instead

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: nthach
LG and Samsung SDI are small fish in the worldwide Li-Ion/Polymer cell market compared to the Chinese OEMs(Simplo, GP, Amperex - 2 of them are OEM suppliers to Apple), Sony, Sanyo and Panasonic. LG and Samsung don't even make their own cells for their cell phones even, they buy from the Japanese 3 or the Chinese and assemble them in Korea in house or have a company like DynaPack in Taiwan/China handle the assembly.

Ford currently sources their NiMHs from Sanyo, while Toyota/Honda/GM go through Panasonic EV.



What does all that have to do with where the batteries will be built?

The batteries for the Volt will be built in Michigan, sourcing for components, like I said will be global.

 

[nthach]

Meh, I doubt the Hollywood hippies will flock to a Chevy compact as warmly as they would to a Tahoe Hybrid or a Corvette or the Prius(which is more or less a Ugg boot on wheels)...

 

[nthach]

Market share and economies of scale. It doesn't matter that LG Chem is working with Delphi on making batteries here.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f13/worst-automotive-marketing-ever-chevy-volt-dance-87067/

This was no joke. It was done right on the floor of the LA Autoshow in front of journalists and the public.

I can't say it was my cup of tea, but is that an ad or just an autoshow display? I guess not only are forum members experts on automotive engineering but now marketing. Oh yeah, I guess they are just stating their (biased) opinion. I guess when Toyota had the real ad, "Oh what a feeling, Toyota!" with the leaping spokesperson that was A-OK. Some of these GM posts remind me of Nelson on the Simpsons pointing and saying "Ha Ha!".

 

[LS2JSTS]

The Toyota Prius ad with the people as plants and grass freaks me out.....it's just weird.

 

[DeeAgeaux]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Meh, I doubt the Hollywood hippies will flock to a Chevy compact as warmly as they would to a Tahoe Hybrid or a Corvette or the Prius(which is more or less a Ugg boot on wheels)...


They are already flocking.

The head Penguin,Ed Baigly Jr is already leading the parade.

PS When were they flocking to a Corvette?

They do drive Escalade Hybrids not Tahoe Hybrids.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
The Toyota Prius ad with the people as plants and grass freaks me out.....it's just weird.


Good point. There is plenty of bad ads and marketing to go around. I find a lot of the old Japanese car ads asenine.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I guess they are just stating their (biased) opinion.


That right there is just funny!

No no, I'm no expert in marketing or engineering (as I'm sure you aren't either), but when I see turd, I'll call it a turd.

I'm also a taxpayer, and I'm ashamed that my money and yours funded this expose that was more poorly executed then some high school performances I've seen.

IT WAS PATHETIC.

And so are some of the Toyota ads.

 

[mechanicx]

OK fine but realize your tax money funds foreign automakers too. The government basically pays for the plant and gives huge tax breaks so BMW or Hyundai can set up shop in some right to work poor state or another, just to replace higher paying jobs that previously existed else where in the US. This is why I don't let things like the GM bail out get to me. Your taxes are wasted one way or another and it's a complicated issue, but probably not one that can be addressed here.

 

[kballowe]

Heck, this is already longer than a Harley thread.

Just as much bashing (me included)

Electric car? Hmmmmmm. Not something that I'd even entertained. Might be OK for some others.

Just get a Smart car with that tiny little diesel engine. Probably gets better fuel economy than a hybrid and you can park it on a silver dollar.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: kballowe

Just get a Smart car with that tiny little diesel engine. Probably gets better fuel economy than a hybrid and you can park it on a silver dollar.

Not smart, but they already tried that. One was a Chevy Chevette diesel and the other was a Ford Tempo diesel. Believe it or not, I've owned both.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

I dissagree that most that buy the Prius do so to "cut costs". ]


The seven people I either know or have talked to about why they bought the Prius (because I am thinking of getting one) all did so to reduce their commuting costs as they all have 30+ mile (one way) commutes. Three of them actually traded full size SUV's in on them. They all cited the $4/gallon gas prices as the motivator and the fact that the fuel savings offset the payments. The environment was an "also ran" consideration. I did the same thing in 2008 by trading in the entire family fleet on 3 models with more fuel efficiency...the almost 40% fuel cost savings is enough to offset payments. So while the "greenies" touted the Prius initially...the $3.50+ gallon fuel prices made it mainstream. One guy I know has a Prius and a nice 2005 Corvette convertible for the weekends. He dumped his Tahoe for the Prius.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: kballowe

Electric car? Hmmmmmm. Not something that I'd even entertained. Might be OK for some others.


I said the same thing until I got a Prius for a day as a loaner. very utilitarian. But it would make a fine commuter car and a great teenager daily driver. I was very imperssed with it. Go drive one. You will be amazed at the technology.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

I dissagree that most that buy the Prius do so to "cut costs". ]


The seven people I either know or have talked to about why they bought the Prius (because I am thinking of getting one) all did so to reduce their commuting costs as they all have 30+ mile (one way) commutes. Three of them actually traded full size SUV's in on them. They all cited the $4/gallon gas prices as the motivator and the fact that the fuel savings offset the payments. The environment was an "also ran" consideration. I did the same thing in 2008 by trading in the entire family fleet on 3 models with more fuel efficiency...the almost 40% fuel cost savings is enough to offset payments. So while the "greenies" touted the Prius initially...the $3.50+ gallon fuel prices made it mainstream. One guy I know has a Prius and a nice 2005 Corvette convertible for the weekends. He dumped his Tahoe for the Prius.


Comparing the Prius to a full size SUV is a straw man argument. The real question is would those same people have cut more costs by buying a smaller vehicle that got good mileage that didnt include the added costs of the Hybrid design. They cut costs VS their previous SUV, yes, but they added commute costs by choosing the Prius over any other car that gets 35+ MPG at a lower initial investment.

Obviously the ROI of a Prius would be quick vs a SUV. But that same Prius vs a TDI, Fit or a Focus and the math gets much worse. The choice of a Hybrid over a similar high mileage small car cant be explained on a cost basis alone. It just doesn't add up in that comparison.

 

[kballowe]

Originally Posted By: kballowe
Heck, this is already longer than a Harley thread.

Just as much bashing (me included)

Electric car? Hmmmmmm. Not something that I'd even entertained. Might be OK for some others.

Just get a Smart car with that tiny little diesel engine. Probably gets better fuel economy than a hybrid and you can park it on a silver dollar.

I had a Ford Escort Diesel. 50 mpg+

The body rotted off of it around 300,000 miles.

 

[kballowe]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: kballowe

Electric car? Hmmmmmm. Not something that I'd even entertained. Might be OK for some others.


I said the same thing until I got a Prius for a day as a loaner. very utilitarian. But it would make a fine commuter car and a great teenager daily driver. I was very imperssed with it. Go drive one. You will be amazed at the technology.


Yeah but I couldn't handle all of the moon bats wanting to talk to me about my "green" car.