Bucket lifters,
- Thread starter twigdog
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No. I assume you're talking about an overhead cam, with the lobes acting on a bucket with or without a shim. The spring pressure here is much, much less than a pushrod engine, but also the mass of the moving parts and interia required is less as well. On my Toyota engine with this setup, you can remove the keepers and retainers with no leverage tool.
I'd still say the majority of engines have this arrangement. Honda has required rollers for awhile for vtec, but Toyota still has buckets on most of their 4cyls... only the new ar series has rollers, the GEMA (Hyundai, Mopar, Mitsu) engine has buckets as well.
I'd still say the majority of engines have this arrangement. Honda has required rollers for awhile for vtec, but Toyota still has buckets on most of their 4cyls... only the new ar series has rollers, the GEMA (Hyundai, Mopar, Mitsu) engine has buckets as well.
I would not be so quick as to dismiss the need for good / enhanced lubrication here. Our 05 2azfe toyota needed 6 tappets replaced at 58K miles due to overclearancing - this adjustment usually isnt required this early. I didnt get it done. Note that with the greater cam BC there will be 2x the cam face velocity of a cam in block motor. Hopefully the OC cam design is under oil all the time, I have not had the VC off my 1nzfe to confirm.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I would not be so quick as to dismiss the need for good / enhanced lubrication here. Our 05 2azfe toyota needed 6 tappets replaced at 58K miles due to overclearancing - this adjustment usually isnt required this early. I didnt get it done. Note that with the greater cam BC there will be 2x the cam face velocity of a cam in block motor. Hopefully the OC cam design is under oil all the time, I have not had the VC off my 1nzfe to confirm.
You got a bum engine...OR your dealer put the wrong oil in it. But I think you just got a bad toyota engine. I must know at least 20 toyota owners and none have ever had an engine issue. But every manufacturer does make a bad one now and then. I am surprised they didn't replace it for you.
I would not be so quick as to dismiss the need for good / enhanced lubrication here. Our 05 2azfe toyota needed 6 tappets replaced at 58K miles due to overclearancing - this adjustment usually isnt required this early. I didnt get it done. Note that with the greater cam BC there will be 2x the cam face velocity of a cam in block motor. Hopefully the OC cam design is under oil all the time, I have not had the VC off my 1nzfe to confirm.
You got a bum engine...OR your dealer put the wrong oil in it. But I think you just got a bad toyota engine. I must know at least 20 toyota owners and none have ever had an engine issue. But every manufacturer does make a bad one now and then. I am surprised they didn't replace it for you.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I would not be so quick as to dismiss the need for good / enhanced lubrication here. Our 05 2azfe toyota needed 6 tappets replaced at 58K miles due to overclearancing - this adjustment usually isnt required this early. I didnt get it done. Note that with the greater cam BC there will be 2x the cam face velocity of a cam in block motor. Hopefully the OC cam design is under oil all the time, I have not had the VC off my 1nzfe to confirm.
LOL! I'm the low ZDDP/thin oil guy and with our 04 2AZFE coming close to 100,000kms, none of the shims require "re-shimming", period.
Got many folks running API SM/ILSAC GF3/4 on shimmed yota engines past 250,000kms and none of them requires serious "re-shimming". That includes my wifey's old 4-rynner V6, 91 camry V6, Echo, Pontiac Vibe, etc.
I would not be so quick as to dismiss the need for good / enhanced lubrication here. Our 05 2azfe toyota needed 6 tappets replaced at 58K miles due to overclearancing - this adjustment usually isnt required this early. I didnt get it done. Note that with the greater cam BC there will be 2x the cam face velocity of a cam in block motor. Hopefully the OC cam design is under oil all the time, I have not had the VC off my 1nzfe to confirm.
LOL! I'm the low ZDDP/thin oil guy and with our 04 2AZFE coming close to 100,000kms, none of the shims require "re-shimming", period.
Got many folks running API SM/ILSAC GF3/4 on shimmed yota engines past 250,000kms and none of them requires serious "re-shimming". That includes my wifey's old 4-rynner V6, 91 camry V6, Echo, Pontiac Vibe, etc.
Arco, you have to consider the fact that the majority of 4 cylinder engines have this arrangement (SOHC/DOHC, direct acting). This exact arrangement is what the API (who knows more about oil than you or I) had in mind when they created the SM specs. This is what all those cars on the other side of the window are using, and any indicator you choose (Jd Power, Consumer Reports) will show reliability improving since 2004 when SM was introduced.
"I would not be so quick as to dismiss the need for good / enhanced lubrication here" You would think this because you use your single experience and project it as the norm for the entire automotive industry. Scientific Method? You don't even have three data points!
"I would not be so quick as to dismiss the need for good / enhanced lubrication here" You would think this because you use your single experience and project it as the norm for the entire automotive industry. Scientific Method? You don't even have three data points!
Given I had good oil pressure and short interval OC, then what failed other than the oil? Toyota supplier has cam induction hardening/nitriding problems? My 1nz fe is very noisey now too - just like the 2az started, and around the same time frame. I also think many folks drive their cars in a state of disrepair, i've ridden in many co-workers vehicles and only a few ran well (by my criteria).
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Ok, thanks for the replies guys. The car in question is 84 volvo 2.3 with 220,000 miles on it. My other two cars are both flat tappet pushrod V8's. Just not a whole lot of experience with the overhead cam engines. The main reason I ask is, naturally I lean to the heavier end of the scale with 10w-40 being the lowest visc. DINO still carrying the correct amounts of adds. for my engines. I have been trying 5w-20 in the volvo and was just curious if it mattered. My fuel milage went down though as a side thought. It was running 60lb of oil pressure with the 5w50 Syntec and idled at 45lb. With the 5w20 it still holds good pressure at 45lb driving and 30lb at idle.
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Just the opposite you have direct rubbing and compression between the cam and the bucket that is an area that should get plenty of ZDDP. In fact I would not use an oil that was SM/GF-3 unless I was adding ZDDP to the oil!!! I would be useing oils designed for Diesels, would go high price with Redline or I would add a ZDDP additive to my oil at each change!
THe Japanese went along reluctantly they voiced concern over the low phousphorus levels and possable valve train wear issues like timing chains and cam buckets and guess what the "P" in ZDDP is........
NO NO NO If you think SM was anything other then a way to extend catalytic convert life you are naive and mistaken! GM,Ford,Chrysler spend a fortune in California and those States with their standards for emissions on catalytic converter! I am sure Toyota and Honda also spend more then would like to on those parts as well. Their where lots of concerns for those car's that do not have rollerrized top ends!SM was found to be acceptable butnot the next best thing. The only good thing that came out of SM/GF-3 is that better base oils had to be used inthe cheapest of dino oils to meet the new volatility and cleanliness standards. For anyone useing over the counter synthetics it was a huge step backwards.
We hear about all these new top secret anti-wear agents like antimony, titanium and different borate compounds but how come we have not seen them in the oils and when they do show up they are in tiny amounts almost token amounts????? Until they get off their glutismaximus and start putting some of these things in the bottle at decent levels to truly take the place of reduced ZDDP levels it is all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.The price of Dino oil is already higher then what I paid in 1992 in H.S. for Synthetic Mobil-1 15W50! So their is no excuse for the low additive levels in many oils like PP for instance!
NO NO NO If you think SM was anything other then a way to extend catalytic convert life you are naive and mistaken! GM,Ford,Chrysler spend a fortune in California and those States with their standards for emissions on catalytic converter! I am sure Toyota and Honda also spend more then would like to on those parts as well. Their where lots of concerns for those car's that do not have rollerrized top ends!SM was found to be acceptable butnot the next best thing. The only good thing that came out of SM/GF-3 is that better base oils had to be used inthe cheapest of dino oils to meet the new volatility and cleanliness standards. For anyone useing over the counter synthetics it was a huge step backwards.
We hear about all these new top secret anti-wear agents like antimony, titanium and different borate compounds but how come we have not seen them in the oils and when they do show up they are in tiny amounts almost token amounts????? Until they get off their glutismaximus and start putting some of these things in the bottle at decent levels to truly take the place of reduced ZDDP levels it is all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.The price of Dino oil is already higher then what I paid in 1992 in H.S. for Synthetic Mobil-1 15W50! So their is no excuse for the low additive levels in many oils like PP for instance!
JB - Hallelujah! I have not been able to stop my last 5 cars from dying. I got the Subaru on rotell T 10w30 dont know what to put in the Toyota 1nzfe? I almost did an OC today with some NOS J Deere Tractor 10w-30 SJ/SL. Anybody know if any of the "off brand" sj small engine oils are any good other than Briggs and Stratton? SORRY FOR HIJACK but still applies to OHC motors. My rollerised motors had piston slap and excessive oil burning above 50k. All of them!
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OVERKILL
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Why don't they use rollers?
It's not like it's new technology..........
It's not like it's new technology..........
ARCOgraphite - I've been considering running Kohler oil in my two trucks as I can get it through work pretty cheap. Like $2.50 qt. And it's in a 10w30 which is what I would like. Just been stuck with the thicker stuff since SM. Still not sure that I need it with the buckets though. Much, much lighter weight than a lifter, pushrod, rocker arm, and heavier valve spring. I do also understand you had a bad experience and appriciate that, too.
OVERK1ll - Car's 25 years old. Not exactly new technology either. On the other hand, I think Volvo still uses them today.
Just not sure I see the need in a special or race type oil in this kind of app. I will have to play with grades though as I lost two miles to the gallon with a lighter grade. I'm anal about fuel mileage which is what drove me to try it in the first place with winter coming.
OVERK1ll - Car's 25 years old. Not exactly new technology either. On the other hand, I think Volvo still uses them today.
Just not sure I see the need in a special or race type oil in this kind of app. I will have to play with grades though as I lost two miles to the gallon with a lighter grade. I'm anal about fuel mileage which is what drove me to try it in the first place with winter coming.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Why don't they use rollers?
It's not like it's new technology..........
Cost and packaging. I see no need for DOHC or 4V in a typ pass car. May be simpler than SOHC with roller rockers (ala subaru nonturbo)
Why don't they use rollers?
It's not like it's new technology..........
Cost and packaging. I see no need for DOHC or 4V in a typ pass car. May be simpler than SOHC with roller rockers (ala subaru nonturbo)
Who needs cylinders as long as you have valves? The Grand Am I had with the DOHC HO Quad 4 would run away and hide from any V-8 I ever owned while getting better millage than the pre smog ones. The Cavalier I have now with the DOHC Ecotec won't keep up to it, but consistently hits 35 mpg running 75-80 on the interstate.
Originally Posted By: labman
Who needs cylinders as long as you have valves? The Grand Am I had with the DOHC HO Quad 4 would run away and hide from any V-8 I ever owned while getting better millage than the pre smog ones. The Cavalier I have now with the DOHC Ecotec won't keep up to it, but consistently hits 35 mpg running 75-80 on the interstate.
Not trying to start trouble but that's a pretty bold statement. The Grand Am with the Quad 4 was what, a high 15 second car at best?
I'll take displacement over valves and rpm anyday. I prefer the laid back low revving nature of a mildly tuned V8 over a 4 banger screamer.
Who needs cylinders as long as you have valves? The Grand Am I had with the DOHC HO Quad 4 would run away and hide from any V-8 I ever owned while getting better millage than the pre smog ones. The Cavalier I have now with the DOHC Ecotec won't keep up to it, but consistently hits 35 mpg running 75-80 on the interstate.
Not trying to start trouble but that's a pretty bold statement. The Grand Am with the Quad 4 was what, a high 15 second car at best?
I'll take displacement over valves and rpm anyday. I prefer the laid back low revving nature of a mildly tuned V8 over a 4 banger screamer.
The bucket type flat tappet cam systems are in the same boat as most normal pushrod flat tappet cam engines - modern oil is just fine in them.
It's break in, or high performance systems that require a bit more help with more additives in the oil.
It's break in, or high performance systems that require a bit more help with more additives in the oil.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
The bucket type flat tappet cam systems are in the same boat as most normal pushrod flat tappet cam engines - modern oil is just fine in them.
It's break in, or high performance systems that require a bit more help with more additives in the oil.
Except flat tappets were displaced in most pushrod engines by the early 90's......
Replaced by roller lifters.
Ford started using roller lifters in 1986 in many of their V8 engines. The only ones to retain regular hydraulic lifters were the lopo engines in the Ford trucks, which got them for the first small part of the 90's. They eventually went roller as well.
The Modular engines are SOHC/DOHC and use roller followers. I see this to be a no-brainer when it comes to valvetrain design. So I am puzzled as to why other companies are so late to adopt this.....
The bucket type flat tappet cam systems are in the same boat as most normal pushrod flat tappet cam engines - modern oil is just fine in them.
It's break in, or high performance systems that require a bit more help with more additives in the oil.
Except flat tappets were displaced in most pushrod engines by the early 90's......
Replaced by roller lifters.
Ford started using roller lifters in 1986 in many of their V8 engines. The only ones to retain regular hydraulic lifters were the lopo engines in the Ford trucks, which got them for the first small part of the 90's. They eventually went roller as well.
The Modular engines are SOHC/DOHC and use roller followers. I see this to be a no-brainer when it comes to valvetrain design. So I am puzzled as to why other companies are so late to adopt this.....
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