The stud only cost like what? $2 at part store, so why not just put it back in and stop the argument? If I'm the manager I'd go ahead and just push it out with a ball joint press and push in another one than fight and lose a customer.
Broken stud:who's responsible
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Originally Posted By: George Bynum
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Dunno,but maybe we should all put just a tiny touch of anti seize on our lugs so this is less likely to happen to one of us.
There's another forum thread on that subject...but bottom line is that the threads on wheel studs are supposed to be clean and dry.
+1 ... Lubricating threads and not monitoring stretch is a prescription to snap threaded fasteners ... much more tension for the same torque.
Clean and dry ...
People don't understand that part of the torque is the friction of the nut on the threads and the friction of the nut face against the wheel (or whatever). Lubing the threads changes everything. At the same twist (torque), the stud is stretched beyond spec. It might be OK, an it might be stretched too much. We don't know how much to reduce the torque spec.
Clean and dry.
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
When I was taking the front tires off of Dad's truck, and the lugs were so tight that I bent the factory lug wrench, I stopped what I was doing, and drove it back to the place that had put them on that tight.
I let the manager break the lug nuts loose, and then he got to re-torque them to a proper level. If a stud was going to snap, then it was going to be his problem.
They were probably all stretched excessively by this point and should all be replaced.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Dunno,but maybe we should all put just a tiny touch of anti seize on our lugs so this is less likely to happen to one of us.
There's another forum thread on that subject...but bottom line is that the threads on wheel studs are supposed to be clean and dry.
+1 ... Lubricating threads and not monitoring stretch is a prescription to snap threaded fasteners ... much more tension for the same torque.
Clean and dry ...
People don't understand that part of the torque is the friction of the nut on the threads and the friction of the nut face against the wheel (or whatever). Lubing the threads changes everything. At the same twist (torque), the stud is stretched beyond spec. It might be OK, an it might be stretched too much. We don't know how much to reduce the torque spec.
Clean and dry.
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
When I was taking the front tires off of Dad's truck, and the lugs were so tight that I bent the factory lug wrench, I stopped what I was doing, and drove it back to the place that had put them on that tight.
I let the manager break the lug nuts loose, and then he got to re-torque them to a proper level. If a stud was going to snap, then it was going to be his problem.
They were probably all stretched excessively by this point and should all be replaced.
Kestas
Staff member
We've had numerous threads on lubricating stud bolts. Concensus among posters is that lightly lubricating the threads is preferred, especially for those of us in the rust belt.
The fact that lubricating prevents frozen lug nuts and reduces the "crunchiness" during removal far outweighs any problems with overtorquing. This is a serious consideration, especially if you've ever had your son or daughter try to change a flat tire on the side of the road and they couldn't because the lugs were frozen. Few people report any serious problems with lugs when propely using antiseize.
It takes a lot to stretch lug nuts. The testing we've done at our lab shows that it takes something like 400 ft-lbs to stretch an automotive lug that is specified for 70 ft-lbs in service.
For Class 8 trucks, it is specified to place two drops of oil on the threads before mounting the nut.
Most modern OEM stud bolts are coated with Dacromet, which is essentially the same as antiseize, but in a solid organic base (like paint). But this coating wears away with use. Aftermarket stud bolts can be coated with phos and oil only, which is cheaper and more easily prone to corrosion. These need more attention to prevent seizure.
The fact that lubricating prevents frozen lug nuts and reduces the "crunchiness" during removal far outweighs any problems with overtorquing. This is a serious consideration, especially if you've ever had your son or daughter try to change a flat tire on the side of the road and they couldn't because the lugs were frozen. Few people report any serious problems with lugs when propely using antiseize.
It takes a lot to stretch lug nuts. The testing we've done at our lab shows that it takes something like 400 ft-lbs to stretch an automotive lug that is specified for 70 ft-lbs in service.
For Class 8 trucks, it is specified to place two drops of oil on the threads before mounting the nut.
Most modern OEM stud bolts are coated with Dacromet, which is essentially the same as antiseize, but in a solid organic base (like paint). But this coating wears away with use. Aftermarket stud bolts can be coated with phos and oil only, which is cheaper and more easily prone to corrosion. These need more attention to prevent seizure.
This is a great excuse for computerized car/customer tracking so if a stud snaps off, and their car was in six months ago, I'd quietly replace the stud for free, knowing they'd say "well I had it in with you"...
The best argument is one avoided.
Though I wonder why more shops don't have a "rusty car disclosure" form they make people sign. Imagine a brake line job that gets complicated by snapped off bleeders, that get complicated by frozen on drums...
If it were surgery and there were complications, the doctor would certainly and shamelessly bill for them...
The best argument is one avoided.
Though I wonder why more shops don't have a "rusty car disclosure" form they make people sign. Imagine a brake line job that gets complicated by snapped off bleeders, that get complicated by frozen on drums...
If it were surgery and there were complications, the doctor would certainly and shamelessly bill for them...
My brother has a Dodge Mini Van and needed tires. The tech told him upfront there were issues with studs breaking on his vehicle and if one broke it would be my brother's problem.
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Though I wonder why more shops don't have a "rusty car disclosure" form they make people sign. Imagine a brake line job that gets complicated by snapped off bleeders, that get complicated by frozen on drums...
Some shops will flat out refuse to work on rusty cars. They know what they're up against doing underbody work.
Every time I buy a used car, one of the things on my checklist is to make sure every tire can come off, that the change kit in the car works, and that the driver (me) is trained in using the kit. Better to have problems in the driveway than on the road. This paid off the last time where I found two stud bolts that needed replacing. One was stuck. I stood on the wrench and said "something has to give". It broke, and was replaced.
Though I wonder why more shops don't have a "rusty car disclosure" form they make people sign. Imagine a brake line job that gets complicated by snapped off bleeders, that get complicated by frozen on drums...
Some shops will flat out refuse to work on rusty cars. They know what they're up against doing underbody work.
Every time I buy a used car, one of the things on my checklist is to make sure every tire can come off, that the change kit in the car works, and that the driver (me) is trained in using the kit. Better to have problems in the driveway than on the road. This paid off the last time where I found two stud bolts that needed replacing. One was stuck. I stood on the wrench and said "something has to give". It broke, and was replaced.
This is the reason why I stopped taking my car to tire only shops. Sams screwed up the threads on my VW - zee Germans put zee holes in the brake drum instead of using a lug nut - and then didn't have the tools or parts to make it good. The first words out of the manager's mouth were "well, I can call you a cab". #$^*(%@!
Originally Posted By: Kestas
We've had numerous threads on lubricating stud bolts. Consensus among posters is that lightly lubricating the threads is preferred, especially for those of us in the rust belt.
The fact that lubricating prevents frozen lug nuts and reduces the "crunchiness" during removal far outweighs any problems with overtorquing. This is a serious consideration, especially if you've ever had your son or daughter try to change a flat tire on the side of the road and they couldn't because the lugs were frozen. Few people report any serious problems with lugs when properly using antiseize.
Corrosion is an issue, no doubt about ...
Originally Posted By: Kestas
It takes a lot to stretch lug nuts. The testing we've done at our lab shows that it takes something like 400 ft-lbs to stretch an automotive lug that is specified for 70 ft-lbs in service.
Fastenal publishes some torque/yield data for B7 material, similar to a "grade 5" and, I THINK, similar to what is used for wheel studs. They suggest, for 1/2-20, that 75% of yield will be reached at about 63 lb-ft if lubricated, 79 lb-ft if plated, and 105 lb-ft if dry. Based on those numbers, 105 lb-ft would result in yield.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
For Class 8 trucks, it is specified to place two drops of oil on the threads before mounting the nut.
Most modern OEM stud bolts are coated with Dacromet, which is essentially the same as antiseize, but in a solid organic base (like paint). But this coating wears away with use. Aftermarket stud bolts can be coated with phos and oil only, which is cheaper and more easily prone to corrosion. These need more attention to prevent seizure.
I think that the truck studs are different, and much stronger and loaded to well below the normally conservative 2/3 yield. But I don't know.
If lubing is what you want to do, ok. I'd rather not. After I put mine on, with open backs, I often apply something pasty to keep water out, but I clean this off when I remove my tires. I was taught (so long ago that we've had 2 ice ages since, I think) to use a wire brush on a die grinder to clean threads on trucks before getting 3 people on the cheater bar .
I have been in industry where we calculated and measured stretch in the lab, then used something like 10% of yield plus some number of degrees (or sometimes flats of the fastener). This works well in my hydraulic valve applications where capscrews are commonly 5-25 diameters long ... but less well with "no" material to stretch.
We've had numerous threads on lubricating stud bolts. Consensus among posters is that lightly lubricating the threads is preferred, especially for those of us in the rust belt.
The fact that lubricating prevents frozen lug nuts and reduces the "crunchiness" during removal far outweighs any problems with overtorquing. This is a serious consideration, especially if you've ever had your son or daughter try to change a flat tire on the side of the road and they couldn't because the lugs were frozen. Few people report any serious problems with lugs when properly using antiseize.
Corrosion is an issue, no doubt about ...
Originally Posted By: Kestas
It takes a lot to stretch lug nuts. The testing we've done at our lab shows that it takes something like 400 ft-lbs to stretch an automotive lug that is specified for 70 ft-lbs in service.
Fastenal publishes some torque/yield data for B7 material, similar to a "grade 5" and, I THINK, similar to what is used for wheel studs. They suggest, for 1/2-20, that 75% of yield will be reached at about 63 lb-ft if lubricated, 79 lb-ft if plated, and 105 lb-ft if dry. Based on those numbers, 105 lb-ft would result in yield.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
For Class 8 trucks, it is specified to place two drops of oil on the threads before mounting the nut.
Most modern OEM stud bolts are coated with Dacromet, which is essentially the same as antiseize, but in a solid organic base (like paint). But this coating wears away with use. Aftermarket stud bolts can be coated with phos and oil only, which is cheaper and more easily prone to corrosion. These need more attention to prevent seizure.
I think that the truck studs are different, and much stronger and loaded to well below the normally conservative 2/3 yield. But I don't know.
If lubing is what you want to do, ok. I'd rather not. After I put mine on, with open backs, I often apply something pasty to keep water out, but I clean this off when I remove my tires. I was taught (so long ago that we've had 2 ice ages since, I think) to use a wire brush on a die grinder to clean threads on trucks before getting 3 people on the cheater bar .
I have been in industry where we calculated and measured stretch in the lab, then used something like 10% of yield plus some number of degrees (or sometimes flats of the fastener). This works well in my hydraulic valve applications where capscrews are commonly 5-25 diameters long ... but less well with "no" material to stretch.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
My brother has a Dodge Mini Van and needed tires. The tech told him upfront there were issues with studs breaking on his vehicle and if one broke it would be my brother's problem.
There is, in my experience. I had an '03 Grand Caravan that broke numerous wheel studs. I think the material was just soft and the threads were extremely vulnerable to galling. Once it starts galling and locks up, you're done. The dealer broke one after ~I~ had mounted the wheels. I know they were on right. I've never had the problem prior, or since.
I do use a bit of anti-seize on my threads now (after that Caravan). You typically reduce the torque by about 10% when using a thread lubricant. On the Toyota, that's about 70 pounds (from 76 spec). On the Acura, that's about 72 pounds (from 80 spec). On the Dodge, that's about 90 pounds (from 100 spec).
No problems, and no broken bolts.
My brother has a Dodge Mini Van and needed tires. The tech told him upfront there were issues with studs breaking on his vehicle and if one broke it would be my brother's problem.
There is, in my experience. I had an '03 Grand Caravan that broke numerous wheel studs. I think the material was just soft and the threads were extremely vulnerable to galling. Once it starts galling and locks up, you're done. The dealer broke one after ~I~ had mounted the wheels. I know they were on right. I've never had the problem prior, or since.
I do use a bit of anti-seize on my threads now (after that Caravan). You typically reduce the torque by about 10% when using a thread lubricant. On the Toyota, that's about 70 pounds (from 76 spec). On the Acura, that's about 72 pounds (from 80 spec). On the Dodge, that's about 90 pounds (from 100 spec).
No problems, and no broken bolts.
Back when I had mag wheels, I had several broken studs but never expected the shop to pay for them, irregardless of it being the shop that last worked on it or another one.
However, with stock rims, then I'd make the shop that last did the work hear about my complaint and see what they said.
This is a big reason why I watch anyone that works on my vehicle's wheels/tires and demand they use a torque wrench upon completion of their work. The Firestone shop I go to claims it is store policy to torque everything with a torque wrench and the manager there also told me he has fired people over not following the policy.
However, with stock rims, then I'd make the shop that last did the work hear about my complaint and see what they said.
This is a big reason why I watch anyone that works on my vehicle's wheels/tires and demand they use a torque wrench upon completion of their work. The Firestone shop I go to claims it is store policy to torque everything with a torque wrench and the manager there also told me he has fired people over not following the policy.
Broken studs! You should see the mess Mavis Tire made smashing center caps out of the old style Cyclone Wheels I have on my E-150. When I saw the moron pounding them I walked in, it was a bit late though he had already smashed them and ruined them. After a spirited conversation with the tech and manager I decided to pay with a credit card vs cash, and took it up with the CC company. I learned years ago not to get mad, or upset but to get ahead, and win! No matter how. Which is exactly what I did.
Mavis ate the cost of the center caps and then some. A simple call to the CC 1 800 # did the trick. Had the guy knew what he was doing or simply asked they could have been easily removed. Smart people alert customers to potential problems before, not after.
Mavis ate the cost of the center caps and then some. A simple call to the CC 1 800 # did the trick. Had the guy knew what he was doing or simply asked they could have been easily removed. Smart people alert customers to potential problems before, not after.
The tire shop for pay, and install new lugs. NTB broke several on mine once (years ago). There was no question. They told me about it, and drove to Ford to buy news ones.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Thanks,guys. Didn't realize that AS would increase effective Torque.
If you understand what you said, ok ... but what it does is increase tensile stress for the same torque.
Thanks,guys. Didn't realize that AS would increase effective Torque.
If you understand what you said, ok ... but what it does is increase tensile stress for the same torque.
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