boosting diesel perf using propane/CNG/meth added

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This isn't strictly maintenance but if it belongs better in general or another forum, moderators please move it because I wasn't sure.

Is there anyone here with any level of experience, suggested references, books to read and similar concerning the adding of propane or/and compressed natural gas to diesel engines, and separately for water/methanol injection, whether for the purposes of increasing power, MPG, reducing fuel costs (separate from MPG/sometimes especially for CNG it's cheaper), lowering EGT's (mostly the water/meth) and even emissions improvements?

I am interested in this both under electronic injection as well as mechanical injection. I'd like to experiment with this eventually and the two potential engine candidates are either a VW 1.9L TDI or a Cummins 12v P-pump, though it might ultimately eventually end up on a Cummins 24v as well.


My understanding is that "awhile ago" decades ago it was more common to talk of propane/CNG adding, and that it's alot less common or favored now. Whats changed to make that happen i'm not sure, other than there's alot of modern performance enhancements more widely available and people like their convenience of running on just one fuel most of the time. Also I hear mention of risks of predetonation being possible (since the fuel is in the air mixture as it's compressed) though that might be an issue of keeping fuel levels below stoichometric where the mixture may autoignite.


I have multiple reasons for wanting to play around with the alternative fuel though, starting with budget - the price of injectors and upgraded pumps get's pretty expensive so i'm curious if you want just a little beyond what your current system can fuel if it might be a better option budgetwise. The cost of CNG is notably less than diesel so if i'm blending fuel the more I could run potentially the better for the wallet it is as well. Even in just small amounts like 5% blends i'm told it increases power, economy, and improves emissions by helping avoid unburned fuel. Sounds like all wins to me, just with a little extra hassle and DIY engineering maybe depending how it's set up.


Who can set me in the right direction to learn from others who have done it, past or present, and places at least that are not negative to using it as a power adder/parallel fuel?


PS - for those curious, my primary interest is towing and having enough power to safely blend with highway traffic under full load. I need to tow heavy with both pickup and future VW sedan pulling trailers. It's also about having the torque to not have to drop too many gears in the mountains since when you drop below 40mph in 3rd or something you start becoming an obstacle to other traffic. (even more so if you may not have the perfect axle ratio or six speed trans option and cant afford to change either) I don't need to blast up every mountain pass at 75mph but reserve power increases safety and i'd like to do it on a budget.
 
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I would talk to the guy under the Powerstrokehelp channel on YouTube or talk with a reputable tuner shop that specializes in that kind of setup. The tricky and key part behind any of this is the tuning.

Bill from Powerstrokehelp has experimented with all forms of alternative fuel on his 7.3 Powerstroke and eventually blew the motor at just short of 800k miles.
 
Very (well quite common down here)...

http://dieselgasaustralia.com.au/default.aspx?ID=Installations

Not so popular with propane over 80c/l.

I've seen one Australian company that do it with petrol (gasoline), injecting a small amount of regular upstream of the turbo, and it seems just as effective, and quite a bit cheaper.

Member oilyriser used to have me begging for more details of an ethanol wafting technique that was supposedly quite effective.

(I've gt a half idea of bubbling crankcase ventilation fumes up through a pool, or tapping off some boost to do similar...half arsed concept ATM)
 
Injector tips are cheap on 12v and 24v. I think it would be much more cost effective than adding propane. You would be saving "some" diesel with propane, but replacing it with propane.
At WOT up a mtn with heavy load, you are using all the normal diesel PLUS propane. So that's really a net loss of MPG.

If you want more power, do whatever you prefer, but just don't expect huge mpg gains. To get mpg gains timing and right foot placement is what you are after.
 
Interesting to 'injecting gasoline'... I suppose any added fuel is a possible power boost. I was actually curious if I could just run E85 instead of methanol since it's so commonly available in minnesota. That should work year round but provide much of the cooling effect of methanol I would assume just with ethanol instead.

I know you can just mix gasoline into diesel fuel (on at least older vehicles) and some describe a power boost... but thats limited by the injectors again. Part of the reason would be to get around the limits of stock injectors and pumps, or to give a little extra boost on something already tuned.

My real goal is not running propane but CNG which is what the cheap fuel is. The propane is as much out of curiosity, something else to play with. Past discussions elsewhere suggested some people have run up to 50% CNG but it's difficult to run any more. With CNG costing less as a fuel it should eventually pay for the conversion cost, despite CNG costing more to convert.

One reason i'm interested in added propane/CNG instead of going big injector upgrades is that at some point of upgrade, driveability and MPG suffers as well. Part of whats on my mind is choose injectors for best MPG and driveability, then add the extra power only when intermittently needed.

Under conditions like that i'd be interested in say a mostly stock 12v Cummins with around 275-300hp and 550lb/ft stock, if adding the CNG gets me to 375hp and 700lb/ft i'd be ecstatic cuz i'd pull more like the newer guys. Or if it's the VW 1.9 TDI maybe mildly built 150hp stock boosted to around 200hp with added CNG. Or running strong up to 50% CNG mixtures at part throttle to use the cheaper CNG fuel.


SVTCobra I know there's expensive tuner shops, i'm trying to find more the DIY route the same way people cobble together their own turbo systems looking at compressor maps and such. :^) In the 1980's this was as simple as someone just putting a valve and nozzle right in the intake stream that they'd manually turn on up a long hill or something adding 100ft/lbs or more to their torque (back in the pre cummins days when 350lb/ft torque stock was alot) just like peoples homebrew water/methanol injection using a window washer pump to spray into the intake. But I was hoping for something with some more safeguards, maybe computer control ability, stories of people who pushed it too far and what happened/how, even if i'm coding up something on an Arduino to run it all or try to enforce safer conditions. (ie no adding under a certain RPM, controlling how much is added, perhaps adding an antiknock sensor from a gas engine that instantly dials it back if ever detected, etc)


This is one of the few modern articles i've even seen: http://www.dieselhub.com/performance/diesel-propane-cng-injection.html

I'm told already tuned engines don't like it as much/diminshing returns but that may be understandable - you can only put so much fuel in before it can predetonate on the compression stroke. Even if it only adds 150-200lb/ft to a strong engine that's probably all you need to avoid going down a gear at times. If there are dangers outside this i'd really like to know what it is.

Since it's mostly about understanding risk vs reward, and the big risk I see is predetonation from hitting stoichometric ratios with added fuel in an 18:1 compression or more engine! But that's so high there's no room for diesel anymore so one should be able to remain well clear of that i'd assume.
 
Originally Posted By: columnshift
Interesting to 'injecting gasoline'... I suppose any added fuel is a possible power boost. I was actually curious if I could just run E85 instead of methanol since it's so commonly available in minnesota. That should work year round but provide much of the cooling effect of methanol I would assume just with ethanol instead.


http://www.hotfrog.com.au/business/Chip-...NJECTION-131586

E85 is an option.
 
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