BOBISTHEOILGUY FILTER TESTS

[darrenc]

I doubt the bypass valves operate like an on or off switch, especially the coil spring type. I’m sure it just bleeds off excess pressure. I agree that you would probably not see a change in the pressure drop under this scenario.

The leaf spring type valves might be a different story though. For all I know, they might be an on/off type of pop valve. It’s conceivable that you might be able to observe a momentary blip in the pressures.

Regarding the valve operation, it seems to me that each valve would operate differently depending on how restrictive the media is and how much surface are a filter has.

Take for example three examples of the basic Ford F1a filter. I use Wix part numbers in this example. Part number 51515 is the equivalent part for the F1a filter. 51085 is the short version, and 51773 is the very long version. Here are their heights (other dimensions are the same:

51085 3.790 inches
51515 5.178 inches
51773 6.980 inches

Each has an 8-11 lb. pressure relief valve. I’ll assume the smallest has the least media and correspondingly least surface area, and the largest has the most media surface area. Under identical conditions, the filter with the more media should have a lower pressure drop differential, and probably has a wider flow rate rating between the pressure drop (i.e., can accept more flow and will have a lower drop in pressure than a similar, but small filter). In other words, the larger filter with more media would go into bypass mode less often than the small filter. I wonder if the valves are indeed the same and If the larger filter has more media surface area, or just less pleats than the smaller filters.

I also wonder if the pressure relief valves in two OEM replacement filters made by the same company, say Champion Labs, would operate in the same manner. Would a M1 filter open its valve sooner than a K&N filter because its virgin pressure drop is already closer to the valve resistance setting, or have the valves been compensated in each application (using different parts) so that the valve opens say 8-11 lbs below the virgin drop?

Just some food for thought.

 

[Arnie]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
Sure, I'd appreciate any help with the costs. I'm going to keep looking for filters and add to our line for testing as well. I have a paypal link on the bottom of the left side of the main page, bobistheoilguy.com if you want to use the computer. They do charge us a fee for using that service, but if you want to send a check here's the address. Thanks.

B. Winters
540 Sailfish Dr. E.
Atlantic Beach, Fl. 32233

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This sounds great to me, Bob. I believe having us members chip in and pay for materials, test equipment, and filter costs, is the LEAST we could do. Afterall, this will not compensate for what could turn out to be weeks of time/labor input to carry out what may at this time, seem like an endless array of potential tests that could be conducted.

Well guys, are we up to the challenge? If you can get a couple of hundred responses, giving say, $2 @, that would go a long way towards recouping the tangible costs incurred. 'Course, if some want to show some of us up with larger donations, don't think Bob will have a problem with that. We can send Bob the funds, and let him straighten up with Joe.

Bob, the check is in the mail.

 

[YZF150]

Preliminary results suggest that the K&N, the Wix, and the Fram are running neck and neck, with the STP close behind.

If pressure drop is proportional to flow, then the gpm ratings for those three filters should be indistinguishable.

I'd like to suggest that you use gauges with a different scale--0 to 50psi, perhaps--to more graphically display the differences.

 

[YZF150]

Two posts above, I should have said, "if pressure drop is inversely proportional to flow..."

Here's another suggestion/request: cut the dome end off of a filter and remove all of the internals--media element, springs, valve, etc. Then, weld or epoxy the cut end and seal up the canister, and then run your pressure drop test. I'd like to see a control value for movement of oil through the intake and outlet.

 

[digitaldrifter91]

great idea!

 

[OneQuartLow]

quote:

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Originally posted by YZF150:
...

Here's another suggestion/request: cut the dome end off of a filter and remove all of the internals...

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Like minds... Have one, 3/4-16 anyway. Still isn't perfect since the inlets vary, but it does provide a good baseline. I'll snap a pic at the shop tomorrow. Want one Bob?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Like to see what you got...

 

[OneQuartLow]

Just what I babbled about earlier. Gutted, reattached filter. Don't remember what threads you're using but I'll look & make one.

I have to stick with one of the better filters. My equipment and I don't like the thin stuff.

Now that I think about it, does your remote have a removable filter mount so you can change threads? I believe most of them are removable.

 

[joee12]

quote:

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Originally posted by VaderSS:
I also agree with above opinions that true flow should be measured. This could be as simple as stabilising motor rpm and temperature, then diverting the outlet flow into a known volume and measuring the time to fill it, or more complex like a rotameter or some other flow meter.

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Vader, thanks for the comments. The problem is that I cannot find a flow-meter that is rated for over 150 degress F, and we plan on heating and maintaining the oil at 180 degrees F. If you happen to come across one, let me know. -Joe

Every time I see your name, I am reminded of the magazine ad back around 1993 for the Impala SS. The ad had a picture of a black Impala SS with a caption underneath the picture that read, "Lord Vader your car is ready". I assume that is what inspired your name. -Joe

 

[Terry]

Bob, the Amsoil Dual remote setup I sent you has the removable threads that are mentioned above, should be in the plastic bag enclosed.

Thanks Bob and Joe for your efforts !

 

[VaderSS]

I'll think about the flowmeter problem, but when all else fails, a pail and a stopwatch never fail...

On the VaderSS, I inherited the moniker from the former owner, but I'm sure that's where it came from. The other one I like is, "It's not your father's car..., unless your Luke Skywalker.

 

[Pete2k_Z28]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
Aren't the STP and the Supertech supposedly identical? If so, the Supertech looks more and more like the bargain of the century for oil filters!

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Patman, I believe the Supertech Filters are made by Champion Labratories, the same company that makes the Mobil 1 filter and several others. Very good quality filter (I've cut a few new ones open) for a very reasonable price, around $2. Thick media with lots of pleats, good gluing, metal endcaps, well-designed anti-drainback valve, good O-ring design, and adequate diameter holes.

 

[Jay]

I've been thinking that it would be unnecessary to use a specialized flow gauge or monitor oil temperatures if you ran two filters in series. One would be a reference filter-- the other the test filter. You would simply adjust the output from your pump to deliver the same pressure drop across the reference filter for each test. This would be a simple way to get consistent, accurate results by taking advantage of the fact that flow is everywhere the same in a series circuit. In essence, the reference filter becomes the flow meter. You would need an extra pressure gauge and another filter mount is all.

[ April 02, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Jay ]

 

[satterfi]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay:
.... In essence, the reference filter becomes the flow meter. ....

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That's good idea. An orifice plate might be better. You can calculate the flow rate and you don't need to worry about contaminates changing the pressure drop across it.

 

[Oldswagon]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry:
Bob, the Amsoil Dual remote setup I sent you has the removable threads that are mentioned above, should be in the plastic bag enclosed.

Thanks Bob and Joe for your efforts !

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Will the removable threads allow for the install of a 13/16"-16 thread filter? If so, then couldn't the tests be carried out with a GM style filter that has no bypass? AC PF-35 filter equivilants would be ideal as it takes both the bypass and the ADBV out of the filter. Plus, PF-35 style filters should be made by almost every filter company, and are generally easily available.

 

[RobZ71LM7]

quote:

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Originally posted by Oldswagon:
Will the removable threads allow for the install of a 13/16"-16 thread filter? If so, then couldn't the tests be carried out with a GM style filter that has no bypass? AC PF-35 filter equivilants would be ideal as it takes both the bypass and the ADBV out of the filter. Plus, PF-35 style filters should be made by almost every filter company, and are generally easily available.

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Ditto using PF35's/1218's would take a lot of guesswork out of the equation. I would gladly pay for and mail a couple filters to be tested if fundsare short.

 

[myckee]

I know you are busy, but when you get the time, could you do a test of one of the Fram Racing filters( HP1, etc)? They claim more flow. It will be interesting to see how these compare with the other fram filters you have tested.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I just got the heater for the oil but have to run down and get a thermistat to install it. I've been working on building a variable 90volt p/s. been hard to find heavy enough diodes but I think I have it licked as I put my design on the motor today and it took off, so now I'm going back out there and doing the finishing touches like a more permenant wiring and such, installing the amp gauge and so forth. anyway, bear with me, hopefully be fully functional soon. Then we can talk about expanding out tests once we get complete with what I'm working with. Thanks.

 

[Michael SR]

looks like we're getting good, scientific data regarding filter flow. how about if someone else picks up where that leaves off and measures filtering ability?

is the problem with that the expenditure in oil analyses? or is there a free way for someone to figure out how many particles... hmmm... if we dumped a huge amount of dirt into the oil, would it be enough to see a weight change in the filter?

-michael

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Howdy, all. First post here, glad I found the board.

I'm particularly intrigued with the tests you're doing, and will be most keen to see how the test protocol develops (hot oil, longer-duration tests, figuring out how to watch the bypass valve, etc.

I noted with particular interest the following statement in another thread:

quote:

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When we test thousands of oil filters, using a more sophisticated version of your test procedures that accounts for variables, etc....we find that the problem is that the filters fall apart internally...and the media just
is not filtering the oil...its going around it or through the
gaps/penetrations

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I'd hope that most any reasonably reputably-branded filter would not experience mechanical failure or breach like this when running cold oil for a limited time. I suspect that the internal damage described here occurs with hot oil over time, so the villified "cut 'em open and have a look" tests might not be a bad idea at intervals analogous to a typical tour of duty on an engine.

I'm a little dismayed that people (on Usenet, particularly) are already basing pronouncements of overall filter efficacy on this test, which has really only just got under way and hasn't yet returned any data that could support a conclusion about which filter is better than whichever other. Hopefully they'll continue to monitor these tests so they can update their recommendations as the data evolve.

Finally, I'm not sure, but it looks as though you may have chosen the filter design you're testing only because it fits your particular car. Nothing wrong with that! Two things, though:

First, remember to be wary of judging any filter in any manufacturer's line by the results produced by any other filter in that same manufacturer's line! Such comparisons are very frequently invalidated by vast differences in filter construction, materials, etc. within any manufacturer's line.

Also, I'd submit that you may want to run tests on one of the most popularly-used automotive oil filter types, the PH8A (Fram)/FL1A (Motorcraft)/L300001 (Purolator)/PF2 (AC)/etc. If you do so, my comparatively-obscure submission for inclusion in this category is the Chrysler Mopar 53020311, severe-duty oil filter. This filter is factory equipment on the V10-powered Dodge Rams, and my tests over the years, though considerably less scientific than those you're doing now, suggested excellent performance from it. I do know its baseplate is of a special low-restriction design, and would be curious to see how this affects its pressure-drop characteristics. These filters come from a Chrysler or Dodge dealer; I bought two this morning for $4.69/ea (US equivalent; I'm in Canada).

Finally, a thought about bypass valves: it would be interesting to compare the pressure drop figures obtained with cold oil to the bypass valve opening pressure spec for this filter design. That way, even before any method is developed for determining the status of the bypass valve, you could get a solid idea of whether each filter could be presumed to be operating in bypass mode (the alternative: An improperly-calibrated bypass.).

DS