BMW M3 - Alternative to OE 0W-30 LL FE ?

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
2015+ BMW M3 / M4 with 3.0L TT in-line six (S55)

The factory recommendation is BMW Twin Power Turbo Longlife-01 FE SAE 0W-30

That's odd that they would insist on FE oil for this engine specifically.

 

[ringmaster]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
2015+ BMW M3 / M4 with 3.0L TT in-line six (S55)

The factory recommendation is BMW Twin Power Turbo Longlife-01 FE SAE 0W-30

That's odd that they would insist on FE oil for this engine specifically.


I found it odd too and while I don't know how much different an oil needs to be to meet the 'FE' designation maybe BMW had to use this oil to meet an EPA or CAFE target??

 

[ringmaster]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W40 has better HTHS. 3.7cp compare to 3.58cp in 0W30.
Also, 0W40 comes in 5qt jugs, and it is much cheaper since it is pricing war between Mobil1 and Castrol.


Agreed, I can't see any valid reason not to use M1 0W-40 in any LL-01 application.


...but edyvw was referring to Castrol w/Titanium 0W-40, not M1. I read the seven page thread about 0W-40 M1 vs Castrol and didn't really learn anything expect that M1 is probably VISOM base and Castrol is PAO and that Castrol is likely better at very cold temperatures.

Is there any chance that the BMW M TwinPower 0W-40 is Castrol or M1 or is it more likely a European brand?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Is there any chance that the BMW M TwinPower 0W-40 is Castrol or M1 or is it more likely a European brand?

SOPUS is now the OE fluid supplier to BMW in North America, so it is some Shell/Pennzoil product, possibly similar to Pennzoil Euro 0w-40.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
maybe BMW had to use this oil to meet an EPA or CAFE target??

Possibly, since this new M4 is no longer subject to gas guzzler tax like the previous V8 version was. I guess every little bit helps.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W40 has better HTHS. 3.7cp compare to 3.58cp in 0W30.
Also, 0W40 comes in 5qt jugs, and it is much cheaper since it is pricing war between Mobil1 and Castrol.


Agreed, I can't see any valid reason not to use M1 0W-40 in any LL-01 application.


...but edyvw was referring to Castrol w/Titanium 0W-40, not M1. I read the seven page thread about 0W-40 M1 vs Castrol and didn't really learn anything expect that M1 is probably VISOM base and Castrol is PAO and that Castrol is likely better at very cold temperatures.

Is there any chance that the BMW M TwinPower 0W-40 is Castrol or M1 or is it more likely a European brand?

I do not think so, I think 0W40 Twin Power Turbo oil is made by Shell.
I think whether you will use Castrol 0W40 or Mobil1 0W40 is your personal preference. Both oils are probably best in class, I am just sharing my experience in VW engines. Now, in BMW you might not notice any difference. I think we can discuss this for years, until you pour that oil in the engine you will not know which one you feel is more suitable for engine.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
I would use the M oil that your dealer has in stock.


Why? The under hood sticker and the owner's manual specify 0W-30 for this engine and I operate the car in a cold climate with sub-zero starts. Without knowing the specs of the two oils why would I want to move to a heavier weight oil?



You are completely overthinking this, and are not understanding how the SAE oil grading system works. Although I admit that it is confusing, you need to understand the following:

Your car requires an oil certified to LL-01 FE or LL-01 standards.

Therefore, you can use a 0W30 LL-01 FE oil, or a 0W40 LL-01 oil.

At extreme cold temperatures, the first number (in this case, 0W) of the oil indicates the cold start performance of the oil. A 0W oil is required to pass CCS (cold crank testing) testing at -35 C, and MRV (cold flow testing) at -40 C. A 0W oil is the best you can get for these cold temperatures. As long as the oil flows when the engine is started, it's absolute viscosity is irrelevant as it is reaching every part of the engine that it needs to (and also providing that you do not redline the engine when the oil temp is still at -40 C -- this should be a given).

Therefore, you can use a 0W30 or 0W40, as both will meet the same cold flow and cold crank specifications, as long as they are either LL-01 or LL-01 FE certified.

Many, many people (myself included) have used 0W40 over many very cold starts and overnight soaks without issue. You can also do the same.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W40 has better HTHS. 3.7cp compare to 3.58cp in 0W30.
Also, 0W40 comes in 5qt jugs, and it is much cheaper since it is pricing war between Mobil1 and Castrol.


Agreed, I can't see any valid reason not to use M1 0W-40 in any LL-01 application.

Agree, like I said it is personal preference.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
I read the seven page thread about 0W-40 M1 vs Castrol and didn't really learn anything expect that M1 is probably VISOM base and Castrol is PAO and that Castrol is likely better at very cold temperatures.


One of the reasons you didn't really learn anything is because on the whole the two oils are interchangeable with no significant differences. M1 whether it is a PAO/Visom blend or majority PAO makes no difference, plus the Castrol is not "all" PAO. Both will perform to the requirements of the grade and specifications stated on the bottle.

Listen to what il_signore97 is saying, he is spot-on.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
while I don't know how much different an oil needs to be to meet the 'FE' designation

LL-01 requires a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 3.5 cP.
LL-01 FE: 3.0 cP.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
while I don't know how much different an oil needs to be to meet the 'FE' designation

LL-01 requires a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 3.5 cP.
LL-01 FE: 3.0 cP.

Yep, FE recommended for BMW M's. Must mean BMW made the latest crank & rod bearings a little wider to avoid the old problems, that's all they would have had to do to run with a thinner oil. If that is all the HTHS (min. 3.0) required, ringmaster can run Mobil1 AFE 0w-30 there.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
...but edyvw was referring to Castrol w/Titanium 0W-40, not M1.


Sorry if I missed that. My response really should have been to say that either one is fine, I've used both based solely on price.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Yep, FE recommended for BMW M's. Must mean BMW made the latest crank & rod bearings a little wider to avoid the old problems, that's all they would have had to do to run with a thinner oil. If that is all the HTHS (min. 3.0) required, ringmaster can run Mobil1 AFE 0w-30 there.


It's not all that's required. LL-01 is also required.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Turner Motorsports had the note: "Beginning with July 2015 production, new models came with 0W20 or 0W30 BMW oil. However, BMW dealerships continued to sell 5W30 until that stock was depleted. The 5W30 is an acceptable alternative to the 0W20 and 0W30 BMW oil per BMW's service bulletin."

For such a new vehicle, maybe just go ahead and web-mail-order, or dealership order, the "real" BMW stuff. Why not? Then in a few years play around with other brands.

 

[ringmaster]

Originally Posted By: kschachn


Listen to what il_signore97 is saying, he is spot-on.



I love this forum - so much knowledge and passion - but after all of the helpful replies I am inclined to follow this advice.

Quote:

LL-01 requires a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 3.5 cP.
LL-01 FE: 3.0 cP.


The PDS for Castrol EDGE Titanium 0W-30 A3/B4 doesn't list HTHS. Does anyone here know?

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
.
The PDS for Castrol EDGE Titanium 0W-30 A3/B4 doesn't list HTHS. Does anyone here know?

3.5 at least, since its LL-01
Exactly 3.5: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3094516

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster


I love this forum - so much knowledge and passion - but after all of the helpful replies I am inclined to follow this advice.






Since it's your car, you always get the final say as to what goes in it regardless of what we say here, and that's fine. But you should understand WHY you need or want to do something before actually doing it... That is why you're here, isn't it

With regards to this quote:

Quote:

LL-01 requires a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 3.5 cP.
LL-01 FE: 3.0 cP.


Keep in mind that the exact reason the HTHS is lower on the "FE" oil versus the regular LL-01 is for fuel economy. This does not equate in any way to better engine protection (not that it would be worse either, as BMW has already taken the maximum wear limits into account with the LL-01 FE certification process).

However, if it were my car (and a very nice car at that!), it would have the 40 grade LL-01 stuff in it for best protection over the BMW-recommended drain interval (or max time as recommended by BMW if I wouldn't hit the mileage), ease of purchasing oil (Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart versus mail ordering or paying dealership prices), and lastly, because the owner's manual explicitly states that a 0W40 LL-01 oil is perfectly acceptable and warranted by BMW to work in the vehicle in question!

The LL-01 FE benefits BMW, not you or your car. It reduces their CAFE burden when you think of how many vehicles they sell in North America.

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

The PDS for Castrol EDGE Titanium 0W-30 A3/B4 doesn't list HTHS. Does anyone here know?


Since the Castrol 0W30 is an LL-01 oil, it will have an HTHS of at least 3.5 cP. Basically, if the oil you want does not specifically state "LL-01 FE" on it, you're not getting the 3.0-3.4 cP 0W30 oil that was installed in your car when you bought it.

 

[ringmaster]

Case closed

I did come here to learn and I understand more about the S55's oil needs now than I did 24hrs ago so progress has been made!

My plan is to run Castrol Edge Ti 0W-30 during the next few months of winter and engine break-in and then move to 0W-40 (M1 or Castrol) or the dealer-supplied M TwinPower 0W-40 in the summer.

BTW, you have a cool car ('09 Mercedes-Benz C300 Sport Calcite White 6-spd M/T) and I have never seen one with a MT!


Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Originally Posted By: ringmaster


I love this forum - so much knowledge and passion - but after all of the helpful replies I am inclined to follow this advice.






Since it's your car, you always get the final say as to what goes in it regardless of what we say here, and that's fine. But you should understand WHY you need or want to do something before actually doing it... That is why you're here, isn't it

With regards to this quote:

Quote:

LL-01 requires a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 3.5 cP.
LL-01 FE: 3.0 cP.


Keep in mind that the exact reason the HTHS is lower on the "FE" oil versus the regular LL-01 is for fuel economy. This does not equate in any way to better engine protection (not that it would be worse either, as BMW has already taken the maximum wear limits into account with the LL-01 FE certification process).

However, if it were my car (and a very nice car at that!), it would have the 40 grade LL-01 stuff in it for best protection over the BMW-recommended drain interval (or max time as recommended by BMW if I wouldn't hit the mileage), ease of purchasing oil (Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart versus mail ordering or paying dealership prices), and lastly, because the owner's manual explicitly states that a 0W40 LL-01 oil is perfectly acceptable and warranted by BMW to work in the vehicle in question!

The LL-01 FE benefits BMW, not you or your car. It reduces their CAFE burden when you think of how many vehicles they sell in North America.

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

The PDS for Castrol EDGE Titanium 0W-30 A3/B4 doesn't list HTHS. Does anyone here know?


Since the Castrol 0W30 is an LL-01 oil, it will have an HTHS of at least 3.5 cP. Basically, if the oil you want does not specifically state "LL-01 FE" on it, you're not getting the 3.0-3.4 cP 0W30 oil that was installed in your car when you bought it.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
.
The PDS for Castrol EDGE Titanium 0W-30 A3/B4 doesn't list HTHS. Does anyone here know?

3.5 at least, since its LL-01
Exactly 3.5: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3094516

Castrol always listed for NA market that that oil is min. 3.5cp. European pds I saw for 0W30 LL-01 (among other certifications) listed 3.58cp (we are getting same version).

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Originally Posted By: ringmaster


I love this forum - so much knowledge and passion - but after all of the helpful replies I am inclined to follow this advice.






Since it's your car, you always get the final say as to what goes in it regardless of what we say here, and that's fine. But you should understand WHY you need or want to do something before actually doing it... That is why you're here, isn't it

With regards to this quote:

Quote:

LL-01 requires a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 3.5 cP.
LL-01 FE: 3.0 cP.


Keep in mind that the exact reason the HTHS is lower on the "FE" oil versus the regular LL-01 is for fuel economy. This does not equate in any way to better engine protection (not that it would be worse either, as BMW has already taken the maximum wear limits into account with the LL-01 FE certification process).

However, if it were my car (and a very nice car at that!), it would have the 40 grade LL-01 stuff in it for best protection over the BMW-recommended drain interval (or max time as recommended by BMW if I wouldn't hit the mileage), ease of purchasing oil (Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart versus mail ordering or paying dealership prices), and lastly, because the owner's manual explicitly states that a 0W40 LL-01 oil is perfectly acceptable and warranted by BMW to work in the vehicle in question!

The LL-01 FE benefits BMW, not you or your car. It reduces their CAFE burden when you think of how many vehicles they sell in North America.

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

The PDS for Castrol EDGE Titanium 0W-30 A3/B4 doesn't list HTHS. Does anyone here know?


Since the Castrol 0W30 is an LL-01 oil, it will have an HTHS of at least 3.5 cP. Basically, if the oil you want does not specifically state "LL-01 FE" on it, you're not getting the 3.0-3.4 cP 0W30 oil that was installed in your car when you bought it.

This! As il_signore is saying 0W30 LL-01 FE only benefits BMW to meet CAFE.
I would also go with 0W40.
M1 0W40 has HTHS 3.8
Castrol 0W40 has HTHS 3.7cp.