Bitcoin an energy disaster

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Bitcoin can't be zero inflation as they continue to add 1800 coins per month to the supply. Even in gold, miners add approx 1.5% per year to existing above ground world gold inventory. It may be small but it's still inflation.


You are right - poor generalization/rounding on my part. Not zero. 0.12% yearly inflation at the current mining rate, which will be halved in a couple of years, and then halved again in another 4 years. Approaching zero, asymptotically (21 million coins is the limit that will ever exist).

 

[bubbatime]

Can bitcoin come crashing down to nothing by a nafarious hacker or even govt hacker? Billions and billions (trillions?) of dollars, wiped out in seconds?

Talk about a currency collapse and crisis.

 

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Can bitcoin come crashing down to nothing by a nafarious hacker or even govt hacker? Billions and billions (trillions?) of dollars, wiped out in seconds?

Talk about a currency collapse and crisis.


Theoretically yes (as with anything digital or physical), realistically no.

 

[CT8]

I just read an article buried on Breitbart or a Drudge link that said the same thing about on line porn [energy use]. Seems the media has an agenda and the sheep are easy to herd. The big women being abused is hot news but where is Bill Clinton.. The media sucks. My BIL believes everything the talking heads regurgitate .

 

[JeepWJ19]

My Computer Engineering professor mined bitcoin back in the day. Had a couple fpgas do the mining. Super low energy draw. Of course that wouldn't work today

 

[KeithKman]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
Bitcoin mining is not cost effective on the U.S. power grid. I think most of the big mining operations went to China for the cheap electricity.


And comically, where they burn the most coal. Go figure.

Wouldn't be economical in Ontario either. Would be in Quebec though, they pay less than $0.05/kWh.


Funny you mention this. I was talking to my coworker yesterday and he was telling me about his mining farm (not bitcoin, some other coin that uses less energy to mine) at his apartment in Quebec. He pays $0.03/kWh. A buddy checks on it every couple of days since he doesn't live in Quebec any longer (he's a native of Quebec though), but comes home often to visit family.

Why is the electricity so cheap there?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KeithKman
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
Bitcoin mining is not cost effective on the U.S. power grid. I think most of the big mining operations went to China for the cheap electricity.


And comically, where they burn the most coal. Go figure.

Wouldn't be economical in Ontario either. Would be in Quebec though, they pay less than $0.05/kWh.


Funny you mention this. I was talking to my coworker yesterday and he was telling me about his mining farm at his apartment in Quebec. He pays $0.03/kWh. A buddy checks on it every couple of days since he doesn't live in Quebec any longer (he's a native of Quebec though), but comes home often to visit family.

Why is the electricity so cheap there?


Because they spent an obscene amount of money quite a while back building probably the largest hydro-electric infrastructure project in existence, which is now paying dividends in the form of inexpensive electricity for not only consumer consumption but also for-profit exports.

Hydro-dams, unlike everything else, can easily last well in excess of 100 years. We have a local one that's 150. That's 7.5x longer than the life expectancy of a wind farm or solar install, and with round-the-clock generation potential.

Ontario was "right there" before we embarked upon the GEA. Decades old nukes that should have been well paid-for as well as a decent sized hydro-electric install allowed us to see rates lower than $0.05/kWh. The GEA changed that significantly, but that's not the only culprit. Deferred debt from the Darlington build (our newest nuclear facility) in the early 80's that went massively over budget (unlike the previous two) resulted in costs being perpetually rolled forward rather than dealt with because any political party running thought it would be career suicide to impose a small rate increase to cover it. Aging infrastructure was another culprit, but from what I've read, we still haven't dealt with that, despite rates basically tripling on average.

Ontario's path since 2008 is a very good example of what not to do when you have a solid system in place.

 

[AZjeff]

With all the recent interest in Bitcoin I've been trying to understand it and have to admit that after reading numerous explanations I have ZERO understanding of any of it. Too abstract for my mind apparently.

Supposedly a currency but it doesn't seem like anyone is using it as currency, and mining? Not a clue. How could something like this ever gain wide spread acceptance and usage?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
With all the recent interest in Bitcoin I've been trying to understand it and have to admit that after reading numerous explanations I have ZERO understanding of any of it. Too abstract for my mind apparently.

Supposedly a currency but it doesn't seem like anyone is using it as currency, and mining? Not a clue. How could something like this ever gain wide spread acceptance and usage?


Back when it started, you could buy them on ebay...some places let you pay.

Your constitution says that it's illegal to create your own currency...so from what I've heard, the IRS treats it as "property"

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
With all the recent interest in Bitcoin I've been trying to understand it and have to admit that after reading numerous explanations I have ZERO understanding of any of it. Too abstract for my mind apparently.

Supposedly a currency but it doesn't seem like anyone is using it as currency, and mining? Not a clue. How could something like this ever gain wide spread acceptance and usage?

 

[SZR48207]

I was actually discussing Bitcoin with a friend and we came to the conclusion that it could be referred to as "electron dollars" just the same.

 

[KeithKman]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
With all the recent interest in Bitcoin I've been trying to understand it and have to admit that after reading numerous explanations I have ZERO understanding of any of it. Too abstract for my mind apparently.

Supposedly a currency but it doesn't seem like anyone is using it as currency, and mining? Not a clue. How could something like this ever gain wide spread acceptance and usage?


If you have Netflix, do yourself a favor and watch the documentary called, "Banking with Bitcoin". It explains everything very well. Great documentary too.

 

[IndyIan]

I guess if you already have electric heat, you might as well mine bitcoins with it...
I was reading that the coins get harder to mine as more get into circulation, and there is a hard limit of 21 million coins, so I'd think the huge operations must've burned through the easier ones and now are into the ones where cost of electricity is the main cost.

 

[KeithKman]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: KeithKman
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
Bitcoin mining is not cost effective on the U.S. power grid. I think most of the big mining operations went to China for the cheap electricity.


And comically, where they burn the most coal. Go figure.

Wouldn't be economical in Ontario either. Would be in Quebec though, they pay less than $0.05/kWh.


Funny you mention this. I was talking to my coworker yesterday and he was telling me about his mining farm at his apartment in Quebec. He pays $0.03/kWh. A buddy checks on it every couple of days since he doesn't live in Quebec any longer (he's a native of Quebec though), but comes home often to visit family.

Why is the electricity so cheap there?


Because they spent an obscene amount of money quite a while back building probably the largest hydro-electric infrastructure project in existence, which is now paying dividends in the form of inexpensive electricity for not only consumer consumption but also for-profit exports.

Hydro-dams, unlike everything else, can easily last well in excess of 100 years. We have a local one that's 150. That's 7.5x longer than the life expectancy of a wind farm or solar install, and with round-the-clock generation potential.


Oh I'm very aware of hydro-electric power. My family has a place on Lake Mead. It is the largest reservoir in the United States in terms of water capacity and is created by probably the most famous dam in the United States, Hoover (Boulder) Dam.

At the time, they didn't know how big to make the base of the dam so they essentially guessed based on the engineering at the time. Modern models show they overbuilt the dam by about 7 times and when the human race is no longer on Earth, some speculate Hoover Dam will be one of the last man made objects to survive on Earth. There is a Memorial Star Map at Hoover dam that points to the exact time the dam was built so if future life forms were to discover the dam after we are long gone they should be able to read the map and know the date and time of the dams completion.

https://www.quora.com/At-the-Hoover-Dam-...he-word-Alcyone

Just a little known fact many don't know about.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KeithKman

Oh I'm very aware of hydro-electric power. My family has a place on Lake Mead. It is the largest reservoir in the United States in terms of water capacity and is created by probably the most famous dam in the United States, Hoover (Boulder) Dam.

At the time, they didn't know how big to make the base of the dam so they essentially guessed based on the engineering at the time. Modern models show they overbuilt the dam by about 7 times and when the human race is no longer on Earth, some speculate Hoover Dam will be one of the last man made objects to survive on Earth. There is a Memorial Star Map at Hoover dam that points to the exact time the dam was built so if future life forms were to discover the dam after we are long gone they should be able to read the map and know the date and time of the dams completion.

https://www.quora.com/At-the-Hoover-Dam-...he-word-Alcyone

Just a little known fact many don't know about.


That's awesome!

For a scale perspective, Lake Mead has a total capacity of 35.2 cubic kilometres. The Robert-Bourassa dam in the James Bay Project has a reservoir capacity of 61.7 cubic kilometres.

The James Bay Project makes enough power to run Belgium.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: cpayne5
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Bitcoin can't be zero inflation as they continue to add 1800 coins per month to the supply. Even in gold, miners add approx 1.5% per year to existing above ground world gold inventory. It may be small but it's still inflation.


You are right - poor generalization/rounding on my part. Not zero. 0.12% yearly inflation at the current mining rate, which will be halved in a couple of years, and then halved again in another 4 years. Approaching zero, asymptotically (21 million coins is the limit that will ever exist).



Actually, there's more to it than that. There are dozens or hundreds of Bitcoin producers already. In a few years, there could be a thousand of them...and the potential to go exponential in supply. What's 21 MILL coin limits per several hundred bit coin products. if one maxes out...go to another...and create more. And who guarantees the limits are in fact real and not exceeded? Supposedly nyse stocks have limits on # of shares available. Yet shares "are created" by the big bank bots as needed to naked short sell them. Why not the same deal for Bitcoins?

Once it was released into the wild, the bitcoin currency ecosystem operated on a public, inalterable schedule. We know exactly how many bitcoins there are in existence today (12,446,725) and how many there will eventually be in total: when the 21 millionth bitcoin is minted, the plates automatically self-destruct.Mar 5, 2014

The above Google reference said there were 12 MILL coins already...in 2014. 16.3 mill in June by another reference. Seems to me they're nearly done. no guarantee price keeps rising exponentially/straight up. The us govt says we have "X' of US dollars in circulation/officially created....yet there many ways to 'create" more product through derivatives, swaps, counterfeiting, etc. The big banks don't really need to rely on US dollars....they created a $200 TRill otc interest rate derivatives market for their unregulated and opaque debt money system. Bitcoin could swing a similar way, though probably not anywhere to that size. When govt's get involved - the brakes will be slammed on hard.

 

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX


Actually, there's more to it than that. There are dozens or hundreds of Bitcoin producers already. In a few years, there could be a thousand of them...and the potential to go exponential in supply. What's 21 MILL coin limits per several hundred bit coin products. if one maxes out...go to another...and create more. And who guarantees the limits are in fact real and not exceeded? Supposedly nyse stocks have limits on # of shares available. Yet shares "are created" by the big bank bots as needed to naked short sell them. Why not the same deal for Bitcoins?

Once it was released into the wild, the bitcoin currency ecosystem operated on a public, inalterable schedule. We know exactly how many bitcoins there are in existence today (12,446,725) and how many there will eventually be in total: when the 21 millionth bitcoin is minted, the plates automatically self-destruct.Mar 5, 2014

The above Google reference said there were 12 MILL coins already...in 2014. 16.3 mill in June by another reference. Seems to me they're nearly done. no guarantee price keeps rising exponentially/straight up. The us govt says we have "X' of US dollars in circulation/officially created....yet there many ways to 'create" more product through derivatives, swaps, counterfeiting, etc. The big banks don't really need to rely on US dollars....they created a $200 TRill otc interest rate derivatives market for their unregulated and opaque debt money system. Bitcoin could swing a similar way, though probably not anywhere to that size. When govt's get involved - the brakes will be slammed on hard.


What do you mean "Bitcoin producers"? Miners? If so, then they're restricted by system/algorithm - ie, 21 million coins ever. Maybe I'm naive (I obviously don't have as much financial experience as you), but that's a hard limit dictated by the math behind the system.

There are 18 million bitcoins in the wild today.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-12/bi...tricity/9246888

It's been assessed that the mining of the limit of 1,800 bitcoins per month is using electricity equivalent to the energy consumption of New Zealand.

Yes, that's tiny...but meaningless calculations to "do the work" required to gain a bitcoin mean that currently the energy consumption is that of a modern country.

,,,

Years ago I used to donate spare processing capacity to SETI and Cancer research...at least using that sort of process for bitcoin payment makes some sense.



Just keep in mind, another media story, there is a story for any subject out there in order to get people to "click" on advertising links.
The problem with these stories, 95% of the public never asks questions or "why".

SO the claim of bitcoin using as much power as new Zealand (nation of under 5 million people) and the point is?

How much power does the banking industry use in relation to some country?
I bet its 10,000 times greater then bitcoin and then I wonder how much money and energy is saved once the middle man (banks) are cut out of us spending our money, we wont need any of them, think of all the energy saved by closing down all those buildings, all those banks, including Wall Street, not only that, look at all the energy saved by all the people not going to work!

We wont need any of them, just like retail building have been replaced by Amazon and Ebay, we no longer need bank buildings and the banks know it, be prepared for an all out assault from the banks of crypto currency as it catches on, we do not need Citibank and Chase and Well Fargo taking 3 to 5% off the top on everything we buy.

Everything is relative and these internet stories and stories from our new modern media are worthless because they pick one item tell you what it is, instead of giving you facts and figures comparing similar actives and let you make up your own mind.

The problem with news reporters is, for some stupid reason, people who watch them, think they are smart, nothing could be further from the truth, they are simply entertainers.

 

[alarmguy]

oops, I forgot, crypto currency is so good, South Korea banks are endorsing it and will be soon allowing customers to keep crypto currency accounts. They have no choice and either will US banks in the future, because, quite simply, we no longer need banks to process payments.