Yes, i´m aware that oil alone won´t fix it.. i'm just hoping to minimize it, or at least keep the engine from going beyond repairing condition..
Thanks for the help
Thanks for the help
Best properties in an oil to slow oil consumption?
- Thread starter TugaSaudade
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Shell did a study and found that if it is in fact the rings that are causing the problem. The top ring IIRC specifically, going from a 40 grade oil to a 20 grade oil reduced consumption. If you like PM me your email address and I will email you the study. I can't copy and paste it into a PM.
As a side note if it is stem seals or valve guides thicker is better. The bottom line is you will have to experiment with different grades of oil. Good luck!
As a side note if it is stem seals or valve guides thicker is better. The bottom line is you will have to experiment with different grades of oil. Good luck!
Its consistent with what i've read here in BITOG were Dr. Haas research was mentioned, that a thiner 30 weight oil could have a better result in reducing oil consumption thru the rings..
I would very much like to have a look at that Shell study.. PM sent.
I seriously think i won´t be able to find 20 weight here in my country, or if i do, probably on order only and at an outrageous price..
I'll see if i can replace with the thinnest 30 weight i can find, much easier to find although still quite expensive here (60€ minimum for 5qts).
Still have 1qt of Castrol Edge 5w30 (12 cSt @100) but i'll delay buyng until i have a look at that study.
Thanks demarpaint, thank you very much!
I would very much like to have a look at that Shell study.. PM sent.
I seriously think i won´t be able to find 20 weight here in my country, or if i do, probably on order only and at an outrageous price..
I'll see if i can replace with the thinnest 30 weight i can find, much easier to find although still quite expensive here (60€ minimum for 5qts).
Still have 1qt of Castrol Edge 5w30 (12 cSt @100) but i'll delay buyng until i have a look at that study.
Thanks demarpaint, thank you very much!
Well, conventional or not, i just changed oil and filter today to low saps Shell Helix HX7 5w30 part synthetic (11,7 cSt @100).
Closest to a 5w20 i can find here is french MOTUL 0w30 group V ester based oil (9.7 cSt @100 TBN of 10.3)
I'll post whatever results i get after.
Have a nice week everyone.
Closest to a 5w20 i can find here is french MOTUL 0w30 group V ester based oil (9.7 cSt @100 TBN of 10.3)
I'll post whatever results i get after.
Have a nice week everyone.
Oil going black in 100 miles in a gas engine sounds like a ring sealing problem. Can't really see how a lighter viscosity oil is going to help here. My guess is consumption will go up with a lower viscosity oil.
Hello bmwtechguy
demarpaint shared with mw a study Shell did and they found that a thinner 5w20 oil had a higher film strenght in the top ring area compared to a 5w40 and a 15w40 and thus less oil consumption, IF it was related to the top ring..
I´m aware consumption could go up, but even if it does, it was time to put some more oil in anyway.
And since i'm hoping to replace the PCV valve in September (local vw dealer claimed they had to first order it from VW Spain and is short staffed in august), it will work as a "before and after" test comparison.. a way of measuring difference (if any) in oil consumption after it is replaced..
And being a low saps oil, it will (i hope) poison the cats at a slower rate until i find and fix the problem.
After whatever mileage i get this time, i'll see if i can smell signs of fuel dilution in the dipstick..
Makes sense to you?
demarpaint shared with mw a study Shell did and they found that a thinner 5w20 oil had a higher film strenght in the top ring area compared to a 5w40 and a 15w40 and thus less oil consumption, IF it was related to the top ring..
I´m aware consumption could go up, but even if it does, it was time to put some more oil in anyway.
And since i'm hoping to replace the PCV valve in September (local vw dealer claimed they had to first order it from VW Spain and is short staffed in august), it will work as a "before and after" test comparison.. a way of measuring difference (if any) in oil consumption after it is replaced..
And being a low saps oil, it will (i hope) poison the cats at a slower rate until i find and fix the problem.
After whatever mileage i get this time, i'll see if i can smell signs of fuel dilution in the dipstick..
Makes sense to you?
Makes some sense, sure. We will wait to hear your results.
Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
demarpaint shared with mw a study Shell did and they found that a thinner 5w20 oil had a higher film strenght in the top ring area compared to a 5w40 and a 15w40 and thus less oil consumption, IF it was related to the top ring..
Again, were these all conventional oils? What was the title of the paper?
demarpaint shared with mw a study Shell did and they found that a thinner 5w20 oil had a higher film strenght in the top ring area compared to a 5w40 and a 15w40 and thus less oil consumption, IF it was related to the top ring..
Again, were these all conventional oils? What was the title of the paper?
Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
Hello bmwtechguy
demarpaint shared with mw a study Shell did and they found that a thinner 5w20 oil had a higher film strenght in the top ring area compared to a 5w40 and a 15w40 and thus less oil consumption, IF it was related to the top ring..
I´m aware consumption could go up, but even if it does, it was time to put some more oil in anyway.
And since i'm hoping to replace the PCV valve in September (local vw dealer claimed they had to first order it from VW Spain and is short staffed in august), it will work as a "before and after" test comparison.. a way of measuring difference (if any) in oil consumption after it is replaced..
And being a low saps oil, it will (i hope) poison the cats at a slower rate until i find and fix the problem.
After whatever mileage i get this time, i'll see if i can smell signs of fuel dilution in the dipstick..
Makes sense to you?
Interesting. Mine is spec'd for 5W30 (or 10W30 in warmer climates), but that was back in 2000 when 20 weight oils were more of a niche market. Toyota has since moved to spec'ing them on newer models.
I've debated trying a 0W20 oil. I'd prefer thinner over thicker (IMHO thicker for oil consumption reasons alone is just treating a symptom while making the underlying cause worse, and maybe shortening engine life as well - just an opinion). I'd like to try Redline xW20 as, viscosity wise, its a thicker oil that's closer to a xW30 (I can't recall offhand if the oil in question was 0W20 or 5W20). It would let me transition toward a 0W20 oil without taking the plunge all the way with one of the thinner 20 weight oils.
It also has a very good detergent package as well, which is another big bonus for me. I haven't taken the plunge because of price: I've never found it on sale, and where I have found it, it was available in only 1L bottles @ $14 a bottle. $56 (for 4L) is too much when I can get Syntec (my most recent oil purchase) for $26.88 for 4.4L.
So it makes sense to me, and if you try this I'd be interested in finding out how well it worked for you.
-Spyder
Hello bmwtechguy
demarpaint shared with mw a study Shell did and they found that a thinner 5w20 oil had a higher film strenght in the top ring area compared to a 5w40 and a 15w40 and thus less oil consumption, IF it was related to the top ring..
I´m aware consumption could go up, but even if it does, it was time to put some more oil in anyway.
And since i'm hoping to replace the PCV valve in September (local vw dealer claimed they had to first order it from VW Spain and is short staffed in august), it will work as a "before and after" test comparison.. a way of measuring difference (if any) in oil consumption after it is replaced..
And being a low saps oil, it will (i hope) poison the cats at a slower rate until i find and fix the problem.
After whatever mileage i get this time, i'll see if i can smell signs of fuel dilution in the dipstick..
Makes sense to you?
Interesting. Mine is spec'd for 5W30 (or 10W30 in warmer climates), but that was back in 2000 when 20 weight oils were more of a niche market. Toyota has since moved to spec'ing them on newer models.
I've debated trying a 0W20 oil. I'd prefer thinner over thicker (IMHO thicker for oil consumption reasons alone is just treating a symptom while making the underlying cause worse, and maybe shortening engine life as well - just an opinion). I'd like to try Redline xW20 as, viscosity wise, its a thicker oil that's closer to a xW30 (I can't recall offhand if the oil in question was 0W20 or 5W20). It would let me transition toward a 0W20 oil without taking the plunge all the way with one of the thinner 20 weight oils.
It also has a very good detergent package as well, which is another big bonus for me. I haven't taken the plunge because of price: I've never found it on sale, and where I have found it, it was available in only 1L bottles @ $14 a bottle. $56 (for 4L) is too much when I can get Syntec (my most recent oil purchase) for $26.88 for 4.4L.
So it makes sense to me, and if you try this I'd be interested in finding out how well it worked for you.
-Spyder
Last edited:
Shell Global Solutions:
"Deposit Formation and Control in Engine Lubrication - Mechanisms & Models"
demarpaint said the person who sent the study said that 5w20 was conventional.
Anyway decided to have a go at it myself..
0w20 is not available where i live, so i had to go with the next best thing.. 5w30
Wish i had those prices over here:
Shell Helix HX7 5w30 synthetic blend low saps (11,7 cSt @100) costed me 50€ (5L)
Motul Specific 0w30 506.01/503.01 Group V 100% synth-ester based (9,7 cSt @100 - TBN 10.3) would be the closest available to me to a 5w20 but 5L cost 90€..
"Deposit Formation and Control in Engine Lubrication - Mechanisms & Models"
demarpaint said the person who sent the study said that 5w20 was conventional.
Anyway decided to have a go at it myself..
0w20 is not available where i live, so i had to go with the next best thing.. 5w30
Wish i had those prices over here:
Shell Helix HX7 5w30 synthetic blend low saps (11,7 cSt @100) costed me 50€ (5L)
Motul Specific 0w30 506.01/503.01 Group V 100% synth-ester based (9,7 cSt @100 - TBN 10.3) would be the closest available to me to a 5w20 but 5L cost 90€..
Ouch. And I thought we were getting price raped in Canada!
-Spyder
-Spyder
Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
Shell Global Solutions:
"Deposit Formation and Control in Engine Lubrication - Mechanisms & Models"
demarpaint said the person who sent the study said that 5w20 was conventional.
Okay. There is a very good reason why the 5w-20 made a thicker film around the top piston ring: All xw-20 oils are at least partially synthetic, whereas the other oils in the test were fully conventional. Conventional oils thin out much faster than synthetics at the highest temperatures.
The 5w-20 didn't do better because it's a 5w-20. It did better because it's partially synthetic.
Shell Global Solutions:
"Deposit Formation and Control in Engine Lubrication - Mechanisms & Models"
demarpaint said the person who sent the study said that 5w20 was conventional.
Okay. There is a very good reason why the 5w-20 made a thicker film around the top piston ring: All xw-20 oils are at least partially synthetic, whereas the other oils in the test were fully conventional. Conventional oils thin out much faster than synthetics at the highest temperatures.
The 5w-20 didn't do better because it's a 5w-20. It did better because it's partially synthetic.
Took this from FerrariChat.com, but is also on BITOG's homepage:
d00df00d, take a look at this:
Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)
Motor oil 104
"...The only downside of synthetic lubricants is the cost. They cost 2 or 3 times as much as mineral based oils. Never-the-less I use plain Pennzoil multi-grade mineral based 5W-20 in my Ford Expedition. This oil is thin enough at startup to have many of the attributes I just mentioned..."
Motor Oil 106
Part Six. A personal recommendation. (Updated in 2010)
"These are the motor oils I recommend. This is based on information that I just happened to collect. I have not gotten the specifications of all oils out there. My opinion on these oils is most based on viscosities. By this I mean less honey like at start up temperatures and appropriate for the required viscosity at operating temperature. I also looks at the oil tests others have done.
I broke it down to several classes, 1-Fully Synthetic, 2-Race Track Oils for Street Use, 3-Semi-Synthetic, 4-Mineral (dinosaur) Oils. The asterisk (*) is my preferred from each group of very similar products. And these are usually easier to find in my experience."
…..Non-Synthetic…..
40 Grade:
Penn regular Multi-grade 10W-40*
Valvoline All Climate 10W-40
30 Grade:
Penn regular Multi-grade 5w30*
Valvoline All Climate 5w30
20 Grade:
Penn regular Multi-grade 5W-20
Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20*
d00df00d, take a look at this:
Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)
Motor oil 104
"...The only downside of synthetic lubricants is the cost. They cost 2 or 3 times as much as mineral based oils. Never-the-less I use plain Pennzoil multi-grade mineral based 5W-20 in my Ford Expedition. This oil is thin enough at startup to have many of the attributes I just mentioned..."
Motor Oil 106
Part Six. A personal recommendation. (Updated in 2010)
"These are the motor oils I recommend. This is based on information that I just happened to collect. I have not gotten the specifications of all oils out there. My opinion on these oils is most based on viscosities. By this I mean less honey like at start up temperatures and appropriate for the required viscosity at operating temperature. I also looks at the oil tests others have done.
I broke it down to several classes, 1-Fully Synthetic, 2-Race Track Oils for Street Use, 3-Semi-Synthetic, 4-Mineral (dinosaur) Oils. The asterisk (*) is my preferred from each group of very similar products. And these are usually easier to find in my experience."
…..Non-Synthetic…..
40 Grade:
Penn regular Multi-grade 10W-40*
Valvoline All Climate 10W-40
30 Grade:
Penn regular Multi-grade 5w30*
Valvoline All Climate 5w30
20 Grade:
Penn regular Multi-grade 5W-20
Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20*
MC5000 is indeed dino and available in 5W20. PYB is also dino and available in 5W20. The latter seems to be marketed to compete head on with MC5000. Both are good choices.
-Spyder
-Spyder
Sorry for the late reply.. my 2 little girls are giving me a hard time
I don´t know the availability of the oils quoted, but they are described as 5w20 conventional mineral oils..
"The only downside of synthetic lubricants is the cost. They cost 2 or 3 times as much as mineral based oils. Never-the-less I use plain Pennzoil multi-grade mineral based 5W-20 in my Ford Expedition. This oil is thin enough at startup to have many of the attributes I just mentioned."
But i am aware that a synthetic is a superior choice, and that Shell does not identify brand or type of any of the oils used, at least its not described in their study, just their grades..
But the only way for me to find out is to try it myself and see what results i get after
I don´t know the availability of the oils quoted, but they are described as 5w20 conventional mineral oils..
"The only downside of synthetic lubricants is the cost. They cost 2 or 3 times as much as mineral based oils. Never-the-less I use plain Pennzoil multi-grade mineral based 5W-20 in my Ford Expedition. This oil is thin enough at startup to have many of the attributes I just mentioned."
But i am aware that a synthetic is a superior choice, and that Shell does not identify brand or type of any of the oils used, at least its not described in their study, just their grades..
But the only way for me to find out is to try it myself and see what results i get after
Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
I don´t know the availability of the oils quoted, but they are described as 5w20 conventional mineral oils..
Right. The thing is, even though they are labeled "conventional," they still have to have some synthetic in them, or else they would be too volatile at that low viscosity. There's no such thing as a fully conventional xw-20. They ALL have to have at least some synthetic in them, regardless of how they are labeled.
I don´t know the availability of the oils quoted, but they are described as 5w20 conventional mineral oils..
Right. The thing is, even though they are labeled "conventional," they still have to have some synthetic in them, or else they would be too volatile at that low viscosity. There's no such thing as a fully conventional xw-20. They ALL have to have at least some synthetic in them, regardless of how they are labeled.
d00df00d, i honestly had no ideia.. anyway i hope the Shell synthetic blend i have in my sump now is close enough to the oil they used in their study..
I would prefer buying the ester based MOTUL group V full synth that my local "jiffy lube" type store sells, but 90€ for 5qts is in my opinion an outrageous price.
I'm sure its film strength is higher, compared to the one i got..
Its a mistery to me how you guys can get so many high quality oils at incredible prices..
Also read Gary Allan's post about using MMO as a great and simple way to free stuck rings (if that is the problem) , just by dumping it in the gas tank, but ordering it to my country would probably make me pay it as liquid gold..
Already did about 200 miles this week, so at this rate i will find out soon if using a thinner oil gave any advantage.
Nice weekend everyone.
I would prefer buying the ester based MOTUL group V full synth that my local "jiffy lube" type store sells, but 90€ for 5qts is in my opinion an outrageous price.
I'm sure its film strength is higher, compared to the one i got..
Its a mistery to me how you guys can get so many high quality oils at incredible prices..
Also read Gary Allan's post about using MMO as a great and simple way to free stuck rings (if that is the problem) , just by dumping it in the gas tank, but ordering it to my country would probably make me pay it as liquid gold..
Already did about 200 miles this week, so at this rate i will find out soon if using a thinner oil gave any advantage.
Nice weekend everyone.
Guys, fwiw, switching to a thinner Shell Helix HX7 part synthetic 5w30 got me a 20% increase in mileage
As soon as i run out of the remaining 5w30 in top up's, i'm going to give 5w20 a try.. with the only 5w20 available to me here, Lucas "synthetic" 5w20 (8 cSt@100)
As itsuMitubishi discovered, i'm also hoping that by using an oil with a lower VI and higher kvis @100, will further reduce oil consumption rate..
I'll keep everyone posted, thank for all yoy help guys
As soon as i run out of the remaining 5w30 in top up's, i'm going to give 5w20 a try.. with the only 5w20 available to me here, Lucas "synthetic" 5w20 (8 cSt@100)
As itsuMitubishi discovered, i'm also hoping that by using an oil with a lower VI and higher kvis @100, will further reduce oil consumption rate..
I'll keep everyone posted, thank for all yoy help guys
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