sure won't find much of this in Q brand 10.30
berryman engine oil extender
- Thread starter jakewells
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Petroleum Oil... 64742-65-0... 45-55% (Group II neutral oil)
Polybutylene Succinimide confidential... 9-12% (VII and dispersant)
Dialkylated Diphenylamine... 68411-46-1... 6-10% (Antioxidant)
Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate proprietary... 2-5% (ZDDP - Anti-Wear)
Organomolybdenum Complex proprietary... 1-2% )(MoDTC, friction Modifier)
All of the above will be found in engine oils off the shelf.
The main point of Berryman Engine Oil Extender is to be added halfway or so through a long oil change interval, not to replace engine oils.
This way, the high concentration of AW, FM, AntiOx, VII, and dispersant will help replace some of the additives in the original oil fill that break apart, chemically change, degrade with age and exposure to acids, heat, and pressure, etc.
Sure engine oils have these chemicals, yet not in near the concentration as Berryman.
For example, at 1% moly, that's 10,000 ppm, which would only require 1.6 oz (a small fraction of the bottle) in a 5-quart sump to about double the amount of moly in the oil!! Most syn oils have about 80 ppm, and 1.6 oz of Berryman will add 100 ppm to that. ... ZDDP and the other chemicals needed, similar results.
Petroleum Oil... 64742-65-0... 45-55% (Group II neutral oil)
Polybutylene Succinimide confidential... 9-12% (VII and dispersant)
Dialkylated Diphenylamine... 68411-46-1... 6-10% (Antioxidant)
Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate proprietary... 2-5% (ZDDP - Anti-Wear)
Organomolybdenum Complex proprietary... 1-2% )(MoDTC, friction Modifier)
All of the above will be found in engine oils off the shelf.
The main point of Berryman Engine Oil Extender is to be added halfway or so through a long oil change interval, not to replace engine oils.
This way, the high concentration of AW, FM, AntiOx, VII, and dispersant will help replace some of the additives in the original oil fill that break apart, chemically change, degrade with age and exposure to acids, heat, and pressure, etc.
Sure engine oils have these chemicals, yet not in near the concentration as Berryman.
For example, at 1% moly, that's 10,000 ppm, which would only require 1.6 oz (a small fraction of the bottle) in a 5-quart sump to about double the amount of moly in the oil!! Most syn oils have about 80 ppm, and 1.6 oz of Berryman will add 100 ppm to that. ... ZDDP and the other chemicals needed, similar results.
MolaKule
Staff member
What makes you think those are the actual percentages??
Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
Do you know what, "Point of no return" refers to in oil chemistry?
Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
Do you know what, "Point of no return" refers to in oil chemistry?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What makes you think those are the actual percentages??
Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
You think they're lying?
5% ZDDP claimed above is er...50000mg/L, assuming they're expressing it on a compatible basis, so to boost oil by 500mg/L wouldn't you just dilute this stuff 1:100?
Seems a simple calculation so I've probably screwed it up, but if its more or less correct it doesn't seem that expensive
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Do you know what, "Point of no return" refers to in oil chemistry?
Think its a hypothesised catastrophic anthropogenic climate change tipping point, which I suppose is sort of oil chemistry.
What makes you think those are the actual percentages??
Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
You think they're lying?
5% ZDDP claimed above is er...50000mg/L, assuming they're expressing it on a compatible basis, so to boost oil by 500mg/L wouldn't you just dilute this stuff 1:100?
Seems a simple calculation so I've probably screwed it up, but if its more or less correct it doesn't seem that expensive
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Do you know what, "Point of no return" refers to in oil chemistry?
Think its a hypothesised catastrophic anthropogenic climate change tipping point, which I suppose is sort of oil chemistry.
well with my current fill in the block of my cars/trucks i would be wasting my $$$ using this.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What makes you think those are the actual percentages??
Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
You think they're lying?
5% ZDDP claimed above is er...50000mg/L, assuming they're expressing it on a compatible basis, so to boost oil by 500mg/L wouldn't you just dilute this stuff 1:100?
Seems a simple calculation so I've probably screwed it up, but if its more or less correct it doesn't seem that expensive
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What makes you think those are the actual percentages??
Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
You think they're lying?
5% ZDDP claimed above is er...50000mg/L, assuming they're expressing it on a compatible basis, so to boost oil by 500mg/L wouldn't you just dilute this stuff 1:100?
Seems a simple calculation so I've probably screwed it up, but if its more or less correct it doesn't seem that expensive
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
It is 2,000 to 5,000 PPM of ZDDP and healthy does of Moly. In a light Phos LE oil, this could be the answer for older flat tappet engines. Depends on what's in your stash ...
Good point. Probably makes more sense to use it as a supplement rather than as an extender. If you're running your oil to the point where additives are depleted you might have issues with contaminant accumulation, oxidative thickening or shearing which these additives won't fully address.
The rationale for using it as an extender might be:-
(a) Its perhaps a bigger market. More people might want to extend their OCI than would want to up thge zinc for an old flat tappet engine, and
(b) It MIGHT avoid overloading the additives beyond Molakules "point of no return" (by which I'd guess is meant no benefit) and perhaps even into an area of negative effects. OTOH you aren't likely to know how depleted your additives are so its a bit of a leap of faith.
It is 2,000 to 5,000 PPM of ZDDP and healthy does of Moly. In a light Phos LE oil, this could be the answer for older flat tappet engines. Depends on what's in your stash ...
Good point. Probably makes more sense to use it as a supplement rather than as an extender. If you're running your oil to the point where additives are depleted you might have issues with contaminant accumulation, oxidative thickening or shearing which these additives won't fully address.
The rationale for using it as an extender might be:-
(a) Its perhaps a bigger market. More people might want to extend their OCI than would want to up thge zinc for an old flat tappet engine, and
(b) It MIGHT avoid overloading the additives beyond Molakules "point of no return" (by which I'd guess is meant no benefit) and perhaps even into an area of negative effects. OTOH you aren't likely to know how depleted your additives are so its a bit of a leap of faith.
Last edited:
I wonder if someone was running a bypass filter and nearing the end of the oils usable life if adding this would extend their OCI.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Yes. The ratios are important.
One would have no idea if adding any of those additives would provide a benefit with the existing additive chemistry of the oil. With the added variable of not even knowing the exact amount that you are adding, yikes.
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Yes. The ratios are important.
One would have no idea if adding any of those additives would provide a benefit with the existing additive chemistry of the oil. With the added variable of not even knowing the exact amount that you are adding, yikes.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What makes you think those are the actual percentages?? Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
As pointed out many times, Berryman gives a range on their SDS. I assume they are not lying. True, a VOA would be nice here though.
For example, by comparison, a VOA of LM MOS2 (which only contains MOS2) says it has 4,365 ppm moly or 0.44%, and this Berryman concoction contains at least 10,000 ppm moly, about twice what LM MOS2 has in it.
Knowing a MoDTC molecule actually has 2 moly atoms in it, and there are other atoms in it, means the VOA would be a little different for elemental moly ppm.
So adding 1.6 oz of Berryman EOE as I've suggested, instead of Berryman's instructions to dump the whole 10 oz bottle in, should simply nudge the moly and ZDDP numbers up in safe PPM amounts, replacing the assumed chemical degradation in older oil still in sump, "extending" your OCI.
Increasing moly ppm by 100 to 200 doesn't harm anything, and ditto to adding 200 to 400 ppm of ZDDP, especially in half-used oil in the sump.
About the VII, antiOx, and dispersant chemical "boost" to the old oil, any small amount of these should help the old oil, so the "Extender" concept works there too.
I just would rarely put in a full bottle. If you put in a full bottle, the result would look like Mobil 1 0w30 Racing Oil, which would be OK in flat-tappet engines or when racing of course.
Originally Posted By: postjeeprcr
M1 0w30 Racing Oil VOA in text format:
Code:
Elements PPM
ALUMINUM 0
CHROMIUM 0
IRON 2
COPPER 0
LEAD 2
TIN 2
MOLYBDENUM 1654
NICKEL 0
MANGANESE 0
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 6
BORON 118
SILICON 14
SODIUM 8
CALCIUM 3152
MAGNESIUM 8
PHOSPHORUS 2202
ZINC 2442
BARIUM 0
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 62.9
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 11.03
Flashpoint in °F 415
Fuel % -
Antifreeze % -
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.0
TBN 9.9
TAN
ISO Code
What makes you think those are the actual percentages?? Unless you do a thorough analysis you won't know how much of each component there is.
As pointed out many times, Berryman gives a range on their SDS. I assume they are not lying. True, a VOA would be nice here though.
For example, by comparison, a VOA of LM MOS2 (which only contains MOS2) says it has 4,365 ppm moly or 0.44%, and this Berryman concoction contains at least 10,000 ppm moly, about twice what LM MOS2 has in it.
Knowing a MoDTC molecule actually has 2 moly atoms in it, and there are other atoms in it, means the VOA would be a little different for elemental moly ppm.
So adding 1.6 oz of Berryman EOE as I've suggested, instead of Berryman's instructions to dump the whole 10 oz bottle in, should simply nudge the moly and ZDDP numbers up in safe PPM amounts, replacing the assumed chemical degradation in older oil still in sump, "extending" your OCI.
Increasing moly ppm by 100 to 200 doesn't harm anything, and ditto to adding 200 to 400 ppm of ZDDP, especially in half-used oil in the sump.
About the VII, antiOx, and dispersant chemical "boost" to the old oil, any small amount of these should help the old oil, so the "Extender" concept works there too.
I just would rarely put in a full bottle. If you put in a full bottle, the result would look like Mobil 1 0w30 Racing Oil, which would be OK in flat-tappet engines or when racing of course.
Originally Posted By: postjeeprcr
M1 0w30 Racing Oil VOA in text format:
Code:
Elements PPM
ALUMINUM 0
CHROMIUM 0
IRON 2
COPPER 0
LEAD 2
TIN 2
MOLYBDENUM 1654
NICKEL 0
MANGANESE 0
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 6
BORON 118
SILICON 14
SODIUM 8
CALCIUM 3152
MAGNESIUM 8
PHOSPHORUS 2202
ZINC 2442
BARIUM 0
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 62.9
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 11.03
Flashpoint in °F 415
Fuel % -
Antifreeze % -
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.0
TBN 9.9
TAN
ISO Code
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Yes. The ratios are important. One would have no idea if adding any of those additives would provide a benefit with the existing additive chemistry of the oil. With the added variable of not even knowing the exact amount that you are adding, yikes.
Adding moly and zddp to oil in small, reasonable ppm boosts, especially in half-old used oil where the original zddp has degraded, shouldn't harm anything.
Knowing exact amounts would be nice. Yet the SDS range does give something to work with. Again, I say don't put the whole 10 oz bottle in at once, but instead work in a 1 or 2 oz "whiskey shot" when halfway through an OCI to give the oil new anti-ox, FM, and AW boosts.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Yes. The ratios are important. One would have no idea if adding any of those additives would provide a benefit with the existing additive chemistry of the oil. With the added variable of not even knowing the exact amount that you are adding, yikes.
Adding moly and zddp to oil in small, reasonable ppm boosts, especially in half-old used oil where the original zddp has degraded, shouldn't harm anything.
Knowing exact amounts would be nice. Yet the SDS range does give something to work with. Again, I say don't put the whole 10 oz bottle in at once, but instead work in a 1 or 2 oz "whiskey shot" when halfway through an OCI to give the oil new anti-ox, FM, and AW boosts.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
You think they're lying?
I think we have to accept that these data sheets aren't actual recipes. They could be out 40% or more and it wouldn't affect the handling of the product by emergency personnel, which is the most important use of these sheets. There's certainly no enforcement about accuracy on this type of document, unless it were totally out to lunch, like this sheet being shipped with a tank of compressed oxygen.
You think they're lying?
I think we have to accept that these data sheets aren't actual recipes. They could be out 40% or more and it wouldn't affect the handling of the product by emergency personnel, which is the most important use of these sheets. There's certainly no enforcement about accuracy on this type of document, unless it were totally out to lunch, like this sheet being shipped with a tank of compressed oxygen.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Yes. The ratios are important. One would have no idea if adding any of those additives would provide a benefit with the existing additive chemistry of the oil. With the added variable of not even knowing the exact amount that you are adding, yikes.
Adding moly and zddp to oil in small, reasonable ppm boosts, especially in half-old used oil where the original zddp has degraded, shouldn't harm anything.
Knowing exact amounts would be nice. Yet the SDS range does give something to work with. Again, I say don't put the whole 10 oz bottle in at once, but instead work in a 1 or 2 oz "whiskey shot" when halfway through an OCI to give the oil new anti-ox, FM, and AW boosts.
What makes you think it shouldn't harm anything?
It would completely depend on the individual oil's formula and what existing additives either work with or are interfered with by those additives.
It's true it might work, but there is no way for the average person to know if it would be beneficial or detrimental.
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Oh right, they quote a range, so you might only boost it by 200mg/L. Is that really a serious problem?
Yes. The ratios are important. One would have no idea if adding any of those additives would provide a benefit with the existing additive chemistry of the oil. With the added variable of not even knowing the exact amount that you are adding, yikes.
Adding moly and zddp to oil in small, reasonable ppm boosts, especially in half-old used oil where the original zddp has degraded, shouldn't harm anything.
Knowing exact amounts would be nice. Yet the SDS range does give something to work with. Again, I say don't put the whole 10 oz bottle in at once, but instead work in a 1 or 2 oz "whiskey shot" when halfway through an OCI to give the oil new anti-ox, FM, and AW boosts.
What makes you think it shouldn't harm anything?
It would completely depend on the individual oil's formula and what existing additives either work with or are interfered with by those additives.
It's true it might work, but there is no way for the average person to know if it would be beneficial or detrimental.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Petroleum Oil... 64742-65-0... 45-55% (Group II neutral oil)
Polybutylene Succinimide confidential... 9-12% (VII and dispersant)
Dialkylated Diphenylamine... 68411-46-1... 6-10% (Antioxidant)
Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate proprietary... 2-5% (ZDDP - Anti-Wear)
Organomolybdenum Complex proprietary... 1-2% )(MoDTC, friction Modifier)
All of the above will be found in engine oils off the shelf.
Sure engine oils have these chemicals, yet not in near the concentration as Berryman.
What do you think the correct concentrations of these chemical compounds should be in a finished oil?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Petroleum Oil... 64742-65-0... 45-55% (Group II neutral oil)
Polybutylene Succinimide confidential... 9-12% (VII and dispersant)
Dialkylated Diphenylamine... 68411-46-1... 6-10% (Antioxidant)
Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate proprietary... 2-5% (ZDDP - Anti-Wear)
Organomolybdenum Complex proprietary... 1-2% )(MoDTC, friction Modifier)
All of the above will be found in engine oils off the shelf.
Sure engine oils have these chemicals, yet not in near the concentration as Berryman.
What do you think the correct concentrations of these chemical compounds should be in a finished oil?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What do you think the correct concentrations of these chemical compounds should be in a finished oil?
Funny. You've never seen a VOA or UOA apparently.
You don't think zddp, anti-ox, VII, and dispersants don't break down as the oil ages?
What do you think the correct concentrations of these chemical compounds should be in a finished oil?
Funny. You've never seen a VOA or UOA apparently.
You don't think zddp, anti-ox, VII, and dispersants don't break down as the oil ages?
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
What makes you think it shouldn't harm anything? It would completely depend on the individual oil's formula and what existing additives either work with or are interfered with by those additives. It's true it might work, but there is no way for the average person to know if it would be beneficial or detrimental.
Every tech journal report I've read where they varied the amount of zddp in reasonable amounts showed very little if any negative interactions with the other components in a DI package and base oil. Also, we see high amounts in racing oils and a variable amount of zddp and moly in street oils. Its just not that sensitive as you fear.
The anti-ox and dispersant chemicals we hope were chosen by Berryman to be innocuous in small amounts. To be sure, I'd recommend using much less than just dumping the entire 10 oz bottle in the sump.
Agreed a VOA of this stuff would better establish a proper dose to raise moly by 100 ppm and zddp by about 200 ppm in half-aged used oil. My estimate of 1.6 oz per 5 quarts is meant to be conservative, and it indeed is very conservative compared to Berryman's instruction to just dump the whole bottle in the sump.
Again, this stuff is likely only beneficial when you add it to used aged oil, about halfway thru an OCI for example.
This is for people who want to Extend an OCI a bit and still have some hope the PIN (pentane insolubles) can be kept down via the new anti-ox added, and the AW/FM chemicals can be restored somewhat.
Note in the following study graphs (Machinery Lubrication article), the PIN insolubles, the circle, starts to rise half-way or later during a full OCI, condemning the oil. The new injection of anti-ox should fight that.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/77/gm's-oil-life-system-improves-timing-of-oil-change
What makes you think it shouldn't harm anything? It would completely depend on the individual oil's formula and what existing additives either work with or are interfered with by those additives. It's true it might work, but there is no way for the average person to know if it would be beneficial or detrimental.
Every tech journal report I've read where they varied the amount of zddp in reasonable amounts showed very little if any negative interactions with the other components in a DI package and base oil. Also, we see high amounts in racing oils and a variable amount of zddp and moly in street oils. Its just not that sensitive as you fear.
The anti-ox and dispersant chemicals we hope were chosen by Berryman to be innocuous in small amounts. To be sure, I'd recommend using much less than just dumping the entire 10 oz bottle in the sump.
Agreed a VOA of this stuff would better establish a proper dose to raise moly by 100 ppm and zddp by about 200 ppm in half-aged used oil. My estimate of 1.6 oz per 5 quarts is meant to be conservative, and it indeed is very conservative compared to Berryman's instruction to just dump the whole bottle in the sump.
Again, this stuff is likely only beneficial when you add it to used aged oil, about halfway thru an OCI for example.
This is for people who want to Extend an OCI a bit and still have some hope the PIN (pentane insolubles) can be kept down via the new anti-ox added, and the AW/FM chemicals can be restored somewhat.
Note in the following study graphs (Machinery Lubrication article), the PIN insolubles, the circle, starts to rise half-way or later during a full OCI, condemning the oil. The new injection of anti-ox should fight that.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/77/gm's-oil-life-system-improves-timing-of-oil-change
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What do you think the correct concentrations of these chemical compounds should be in a finished oil?
Funny. You've never seen a VOA or UOA apparently...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What do you think the correct concentrations of these chemical compounds should be in a finished oil?
Funny. You've never seen a VOA or UOA apparently...
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
You don't think zddp, anti-ox, VII, and dispersants don't break down as the oil ages?
Well people always say the VII shear, but then we've had some (supposedly knowledgeable people on here) say that it is actually quite stable and doesn't shear apart nearly as much as people think that it does. They attribute an oil thinning to other processes such as fuel dilution.
As far as ZDDP goes, that can't mechanically break down, can it? I could see thermal decomposition perhaps, depending on the operating temperature of the oil. This is an interesting paper I saw on the subject but it seems a bit inconclusive in the conclusion section:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1502.07261.pdf
When you see on a UOA that the Zn level is similar to the level in a VOA that doesn't tell you anything about the structure of the molecules unfortunately, or whether the compound is still effective for the intended purpose.
And as far as the dispersants go, I don't know. We used dispersants in polymer mixtures that were mixed in ball mills under very high shear and impact forces but I don't know what happened to the dispersant molecules after the mixing was complete. Whether that is even the same kind of dispersants I have no clue. They were from BASF is all I know.
You don't think zddp, anti-ox, VII, and dispersants don't break down as the oil ages?
Well people always say the VII shear, but then we've had some (supposedly knowledgeable people on here) say that it is actually quite stable and doesn't shear apart nearly as much as people think that it does. They attribute an oil thinning to other processes such as fuel dilution.
As far as ZDDP goes, that can't mechanically break down, can it? I could see thermal decomposition perhaps, depending on the operating temperature of the oil. This is an interesting paper I saw on the subject but it seems a bit inconclusive in the conclusion section:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1502.07261.pdf
When you see on a UOA that the Zn level is similar to the level in a VOA that doesn't tell you anything about the structure of the molecules unfortunately, or whether the compound is still effective for the intended purpose.
And as far as the dispersants go, I don't know. We used dispersants in polymer mixtures that were mixed in ball mills under very high shear and impact forces but I don't know what happened to the dispersant molecules after the mixing was complete. Whether that is even the same kind of dispersants I have no clue. They were from BASF is all I know.
I see i opened a can of worms with this thread.
Nope just how BITOG is sometimes.
- Status