B10 Engine Life

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Do OEMs ever give you the B10 for a specific engine or is that internal?

 
Do OEMs ever give you the B10 for a specific engine or is that internal?

That's really cool. Could you imagine if engines for passenger cars were required to provide this information? ROFL. .Some automakers would go out of business.

I wonder how "overhaul" is defined. Anyone out there??
 
That's really cool. Could you imagine if engines for passenger cars were required to provide this information? ROFL. .Some automakers would go out of business.

I wonder how "overhaul" is defined. Anyone out there??
In the automotive world, I suggest we call it a "C" rating, for "Car" and have a 100,000 mile and 300,000 categories (+/- 20%) . So C1 and C3 ratings.

Some H/K engines would get a C1-100 rating. Where 100% would be expected to fail at or around the 100K mark.
 
The life expectancy is also based on the assumption that manufacturer specified maintenance intervals are followed, which we all know is hardly ever the case.
I'd say that many drivers actually fall into the "severe service" OCI, and you would be doubly correct.

But there is no doubt of one thing, some manufacturers extend OCI's well beyond what works well. My very high performance Jaguar F-Type spec's 0W-20 oil at 18,000 mile OCI's. Sure, it holds 8 quarts. But it also makes 67+ HP per 500cc, direct injected, oil diluting, cylinder. It is no wonder the engine is prone to rapid timing chain and main bearing failures.
 
I'd say that many drivers actually fall into the "severe service" OCI, and you would be doubly correct.

But there is no doubt of one thing, some manufacturers extend OCI's well beyond what works well. My very high performance Jaguar F-Type spec's 0W-20 oil at 18,000 mile OCI's. Sure, it holds 8 quarts. But it also makes 67+ HP per 500cc, direct injected, oil diluting, cylinder. It is no wonder the engine is prone to rapid timing chain and main bearing failures.
Growing up my father had a Jeep Cherokee XJ and two V8 Grand Cherokees. I'm not sure how most of them made it to 200k miles, he changed the oil "when he remembered" to bring it to a quick lube, and all of the other fluids and maintenance items were never touched. He did frequent towing with them hauling firewood, dirt, mulch, stone, etc. I think vehicles back in the 90s-early 2000s were a bit more resilient because they were simpler and easier on oil. Fuel injection, but not overly complicated due to turbos and GDI, and VVT was just becoming a thing. Now if you don't change your oil, it can cause a lot more problems.

I know I fall under the severe service intervals simply because my work commute is now very short (under 6 miles) and I rarely go on longer highway drives.
 
Sometimes an ad will say "90% of all Subarus sold since 2008 are still on the road." To me that indicates that something deal-breaking hits at the 15 year mark and they then rapidly start getting junked. Might not be an engine... could be rust or emissions issues.
 
Sometimes an ad will say "90% of all Subarus sold since 2008 are still on the road." To me that indicates that something deal-breaking hits at the 15 year mark and they then rapidly start getting junked. Might not be an engine... could be rust or emissions issues.
Likely rust, given the area where Subarus are most popular, and how they aren't very corrosion resistant at least in my experience. In the salt belt, 15 years on a Subaru is doing pretty good.
 
The more UOA's you see the more you realize that oils are a band aid and a good engine is a good engine regardless of brand.
 
Not exactly a B10 rating but at 1:06 the engineer says the abusive the car for 100k miles 3x.

 
I used to do this kind of work when I was in the private sector; quality assurance, statistical process controls, etc.


The "B" series rating has been around a long time in commercial and industrial applications. Not just engines, but all manner of lubricated things (gearboxes for conveyor systems, bearings for massive HVAC system air movers, huge air compressors, electric motors, PCBs, etc).

Back in the day, the "B" statement literally meant "bearing" life. But the concept of quality assurance has grown exponentially over the last few decades, and so "BX" really just is a statement about lifespan at some failure %. It no longer is limited to the concept of bearings; it's just an overall statement for any component or assembly ... ("B" refers to the component or assembly, and "X" refers to a %).

In the light duty worlds (cars, SUVs, light trucks, motorcycles, etc) you'll never see "B" life statements. Too many downsides and few upsides for the OEM to make any claims here. You'll get a new car warranty typically stated in months/mile limits, and that's about the end of anything you'll be assured of.

Much of this topic (bearing life, or equipment life in a broader sense) is based on the concept of MTTF; meat time to failure. (Or MTtF, or MTF ...)
The makers of product "X" will often do analysis studies and see how long their product takes to fail in controlled, typically expected conditions. They will often rate these at some confidence interval; perhaps 90%, 95%, 50%, or whatever they choose. When they test the components, the closer the failures are to each other in terms of duration, the higher the confidence intervals. The duration of lifespan is often stated in a UoM relevant to the expected use (hours, on/off cycles, etc).

OEs who run mass production companies test samples and make representative statements based on mathematical formulations. It's not like they can test every single unit made; that's impossible in mass production. So they sample units and use statistical modeling to get an idea of the quality of the products and processes.

Examples: (note ... I'm making up fictitious numbers for the examples below; I've not run the data on these, so my estimates are likely a tad off, but you'll get the point)

Let's talk about a blower motor assembly for an HVAC application in the car (the air mover in the passenger compartment).
Say the maker tests five blower assemblies, and runs them in cyclic operation. They decide to rate the blowerlife in hours. There are several considerations that play into the failures, but the ultimate goal is to make the blowers fail; that's the only way they will be able to project a lifespan. This is because it doesn't matter to the end user if the blower windings failed, or the blower bearings failed, or the blower wheel failed; all the end user knows is the blower "ain't blowing air no mo'". To the end user, it either works or it doesn't; it's a pass/fail criteria. It is important to understand that unless a failure occurs, the lifespan and confidence interval cannot be determined. So testing must take place until failure, regardless of failure mode.

So let's say the blower maker tests 5 blower assemblies and they fail with this history (we'll label them A through E)
A fails at 10,000 hours
B fails at 9,657 hours
C fails at 10,117 hours
D fails at 10,302 hours
E fails at 9, 888 hours
The failures are fairly tight together in terms of duration, so the OE can then say with some high degree of certainty that blowers will have a "lifecycle" of 10,000 hours with 95% confidence. (the average is 9992 hours, and the grouping is very tight; a small stardard deviation)


But now let's say the blower failures are much further separated ...
A fails at 10,000 hours
B fails at 6,018 hours
C fails at 13, 657 hours
D fails at 9, 002 hours
E fails at 11, 690 hours
The failures are not as tightly grouped, even though the average is still close to the group above (avg of 10,073 hrs here, but with much larger variation). So the confidence interval may only be 50%, still close to that 10,000 hour mark.


The rating of equipment lifespan in quality circles centers around two things:
- the expectation average duration until failure
- the percentage of items likely to fail at that stated duration


Hence, a commercial trucking engine maker might state "Our new RoadMax engine is B50 at 1.3M miles". Meaning that 50% of the engines are expected to last in "normal" service to 1.3M miles.
 
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Sometimes an ad will say "90% of all Subarus sold since 2008 are still on the road." To me that indicates that something deal-breaking hits at the 15 year mark and they then rapidly start getting junked. Might not be an engine... could be rust or emissions issues.
Is THAT what they meant! I figured it meant that the tow companies were really backed up. Between me and two daughters we each owned a Subaru. None of us will ever own another one.
 
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