Automotive gasoline in a jet turbine?

[Number_35]

I'm rereading Winterhawk by Craig Thomas, a pretty good cold-war thriller. Winterhawk is the 3rd book in the Mitchell Gant trilogy. Firefox is the best known of the three, possibly due to its being made into a movie. Firefox Down is the sequel to Firefox.

I won't give a spoiler alert, as I first read the book in 1988.

Anyway, at one point the protagonist is flying a stolen Soviet MIL-24 Hind helicopter into Kazakhstan to try to extricate a spy.

He runs low on fuel and sets down by a decrepit rural gas station, and has the peasant owner fill up the tanks with auto gasoline.

This didn't sound plausible, but per the 'net, gasoline can be used in a turbine, in an emergency situation, as an alternative to kerosene.

 

[y_p_w]

I've heard that turbines can use a variety of fuels, but gasoline doesn't seem like it would be suitable. I know marine and power generation turbines can be pretty tolerant of different fuels, and they're really just jet engines. But I haven't heard of anything used that isn't close to kerosene. The US Navy previously considered using JP-5 jet fuel for their marine turbines, which would be a common fuel for their helicopters. Power generation turbines typically use natural gas, but that obviously requires a way to feed it. I see this list has a lot of things including some gasoline components, but it doesn't include gasoline or diesel.

Flexible Fuel Offerings | GE Gas Power

Over the last decade, GE has performed over 20,000 hours of testing to validate our flexible fuel technology. Contact us to find the right gas turbine for you.

www.ge.com

GE Gas Power's variety of fuels​

• Arabian Extra Light Crude Oil (AXL)
• Arabian Super Light (ASL)
• Biodiesel Condensate or Natural Gas Liquids (NGL)
• Dimethyl Ether (DME)
• Distillate Oil #2 (DO2)
• Ethane (C2)
• Heavy Crude Oil
• Heavy Fuel Oil (HFO)
• High H2
• Hydrogen Blends
• Kerosene (Jet A or Jet A-1)
• Lean Methane
• Light Crude Oil (LCO)
• Liquid Natural Gas (LNG)
• Liquefied Propane Gas (LPG)
• Medium Crude Oil
• Methanol / Ethanol (Alcohol)
• Naphtha
• Natural Gas (NG)
• Sour Gas (H2S)
• Steel Mill Gases
• Syngas

There was an episode of The A-Team where Murdock has to land a helicopter that's low on fuel at a gas station and then fills it at a gas pump. Looks like a Bell Jet Ranger, which I'm pretty sure is powered by a turboshaft requiring jet fuel.



Still - not sure about gasoline.

 

[chainblu]

When I was in A&P school one of my instructors was ex-Army. He told a story about how his group of Hueys flew into an airfield in England only to find out the only fuel available was AvGas. He said it was ok to use but would shorten the TBO (Time Between Overhaul) period by a certain percentage. If I recall correctly, it had more to do with the lead in the gasoline than anything else.

I'm not sure how they would calculate Chevron Super Unleaded.

 

[y_p_w]

I've heard that turbines can use a variety of fuels, but gasoline doesn't seem like it would be suitable. I know marine and power generation turbines can be pretty tolerant of different fuels, and they're really just jet engines. But I haven't heard of anything used that isn't close to kerosene. The US Navy previously considered using JP-5 jet fuel for their marine turbines, which would be a common fuel for their helicopters. Power generation turbines typically use natural gas, but that obviously requires a way to feed it. I see this list has a lot of things including some gasoline components, but it doesn't include gasoline or diesel.

Flexible Fuel Offerings | GE Gas Power

Over the last decade, GE has performed over 20,000 hours of testing to validate our flexible fuel technology. Contact us to find the right gas turbine for you.

www.ge.com

GE Gas Power's variety of fuels​

• Arabian Extra Light Crude Oil (AXL)
• Arabian Super Light (ASL)
• Biodiesel Condensate or Natural Gas Liquids (NGL)
• Dimethyl Ether (DME)
• Distillate Oil #2 (DO2)
• Ethane (C2)
• Heavy Crude Oil
• Heavy Fuel Oil (HFO)
• High H2
• Hydrogen Blends
• Kerosene (Jet A or Jet A-1)
• Lean Methane
• Light Crude Oil (LCO)
• Liquid Natural Gas (LNG)
• Liquefied Propane Gas (LPG)
• Medium Crude Oil
• Methanol / Ethanol (Alcohol)
• Naphtha
• Natural Gas (NG)
• Sour Gas (H2S)
• Steel Mill Gases
• Syngas

There was an episode of The A-Team where Murdock has to land a helicopter that's low on fuel at a gas station and then fills it at a gas pump. Looks like a Bell Jet Ranger, which I'm pretty sure is powered by a turboshaft requiring jet fuel.



Still - not sure about gasoline.

Just had another look at the list and distillate oil #2 is just heating oil and fairly similar to diesel #2.

 

[Cujet]

Gasoline runs wonderfully in gas turbine engines. There are minor downsides, such as lower energy content per gallon (not by weight though) and lower lubricity for the high pressure pumps in the Fuel Control Unit. And of course, if leaded gasoline is used, deposits can accumulate quickly.

In fact, if a turbine engine is having difficulty lighting off, avgas is often a quick and dirty solution.

The P2V used leaded avgas for all engines!

 

[Malo83]

NAVY P2V Neptune jet engines burned AVGas as the R3350 engines.

 

[Exhaustgases]

And then what about the jet assisted KC-97's and the B-36? I think those jets burned the same gasoline that the recip engines did.
For planes powered with piston engines it would not be a good idea to have separate tanks of fuel for the jets. Because someone could make a mistake and fill the piston engine tanks with kerosene.

 

[Number_35]

And then what about the jet assisted KC-97's and the B-36? I think those jets burned the same gasoline that the recip engines did.
For planes powered with piston engines it would not be a good idea to have separate tanks of fuel for the jets. Because someone could make a mistake and fill the piston engine tanks with kerosene.

That makes sense.

The B-36 Peacemaker - the original hybrid.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Automotive gas is a bad choice for a jet turbine or anything in aviation. The RVP is much too high and distillation curve much too low. As the jet quickly gains altitude, the sudden drop in air pressure can cause a volatile fuel to flash to vapor and stall the engine in mid air. That's a bad day. Automotive gas has an RVP of 7.5-9.0 psi (for summer blend) and distillation curve in the range of 100-400°F. Jet fuel has an RVP of
Similarly, avgas and jet fuel is a bad choice for automotive engines as the fuel would struggle to vaporize and combust efficiently.

 

[billt460]

......In fact, if a turbine engine is having difficulty lighting off, avgas is often a quick and dirty solution.......

I believe the engines used in the SR-71 ran on a especially difficult to light fuel, (JP-7). It had a very high flashpoint to prevent it from being ignited by the high temperatures of the airframe.

In fact, in order to start the engines they initially injected a shot of TEB, (Triethylborane), into the hot section, in order to get things going.

 

[97prizm]

I've heard that turbines can use a variety of fuels, but gasoline doesn't seem like it would be suitable. I know marine and power generation turbines can be pretty tolerant of different fuels, and they're really just jet engines. But I haven't heard of anything used that isn't close to kerosene. The US Navy previously considered using JP-5 jet fuel for their marine turbines, which would be a common fuel for their helicopters. Power generation turbines typically use natural gas, but that obviously requires a way to feed it. I see this list has a lot of things including some gasoline components, but it doesn't include gasoline or diesel.

Flexible Fuel Offerings | GE Gas Power

Over the last decade, GE has performed over 20,000 hours of testing to validate our flexible fuel technology. Contact us to find the right gas turbine for you.

www.ge.com

GE Gas Power's variety of fuels​

• Arabian Extra Light Crude Oil (AXL)
• Arabian Super Light (ASL)
• Biodiesel Condensate or Natural Gas Liquids (NGL)
• Dimethyl Ether (DME)
• Distillate Oil #2 (DO2)
• Ethane (C2)
• Heavy Crude Oil
• Heavy Fuel Oil (HFO)
• High H2
• Hydrogen Blends
• Kerosene (Jet A or Jet A-1)
• Lean Methane
• Light Crude Oil (LCO)
• Liquid Natural Gas (LNG)
• Liquefied Propane Gas (LPG)
• Medium Crude Oil
• Methanol / Ethanol (Alcohol)
• Naphtha
• Natural Gas (NG)
• Sour Gas (H2S)
• Steel Mill Gases
• Syngas

There was an episode of The A-Team where Murdock has to land a helicopter that's low on fuel at a gas station and then fills it at a gas pump. Looks like a Bell Jet Ranger, which I'm pretty sure is powered by a turboshaft requiring jet fuel.



Still - not sure about gasoline.

I don't know of any Turbine engines that can use gasoline. Supposedly somewhere I read that the M1 Abrams can use diesel or gasoline but not sure how they're able to do that.

 

[Skippy722]

I don't know of any Turbine engines that can use gasoline. Supposedly somewhere I read that the M1 Abrams can use diesel or gasoline but not sure how they're able to do that.

Chrysler had a multi fuel turbine they crammed into a car in the 1960’s. It would even run on tequila and vegetable oil (president of Mexico proved the tequila one). The M1 Abrams turbine can also run on gasoline.

 

[Cujet]

I don't know of any Turbine engines that can use gasoline. Supposedly somewhere I read that the M1 Abrams can use diesel or gasoline but not sure how they're able to do that.

Again, all turbine engines will run on automotive gasoline. Many aircraft jet and turboprop engines are approved for the use of aviation gasoline.

Here is note 8 from the Pratt and Whitney PT-6 "Type Certificate Data Sheet"

Note 8: "Emergency use of MIL-G-5572, Grades 80/07, 91/98, 100/130 and 115/145 is permitted for a total time period
not exceeding 150 hours during any overhaul period. It is not necessary to purge the unused fuel from the system
when switching fuel type"

 

[walterjay]

I once saw a turbine powered prototype car in 1980. The driver said it would burn anything including gasoline.

 

[y_p_w]

I once saw a turbine powered prototype car in 1980. The driver said it would burn anything including gasoline.

Gas turbines are supposedly tolerant of fuel used, although I never heard of gasoline being terribly popular for it nor approved in many applications.

General Electric was working on turbine-electric powered railroad locomotives with a partner that Union Pacific apparently used. Apparently it was OK even though it used a ton of fuel because it was cheap bunker fuel. But apparently GE didn't make the locomotive per se, but worked on the drivetrain where they had the expertise in turbines, electrical generation, and electric motors. They did have in-house expertise in locomotives, but somehow they wanted a partnership.

Union Pacific GTELs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[theflyingspanna]

Gas turbine engines can run on a variety of different fuels, Avtur which is basically Kero with FSII in it (Fuel System Icing Inhibitor) is normally the recommended fuel to use or a JP variant.
Aviation Gasoline on the other can be used in time of war or other emergency situations, but as mentioned due to the extreme Tetraethyl Lead especially in the higher Avgas variant, the TEL acts as an extreme heat sink on the turbine inlet nozzle guide vanes and shortens the life dramatically especially if they are an earlier variant with no air cooling off the compressor to reduce the heat sink that occurs.
Cracking occurs at a much faster rate and is normally inspected by removing the fuel nozzles for access.

 

[k1xv]

As noted earlier, the B-36 Peacemaker bomber had six pusher Pratt and Whitney piston engines, and four jets. The jets were used during take offs, and when the big plane needed extra speed. All engines, piston and jet, ran on aviation gasoline.

 

[theflyingspanna]

How true, but for noticeably shorter durations and not for a constant load or full cycle of flight.
They are simply different animals for propulsion, one to reduce knock with compound turbines, superchargers in big Prat engines, one with a constant flame front coating the internals with a TEL. or normal fuel rated lead.
Using the same fuel is and economic of space and weight, but in-Flight manuals of C130's etc. the T56 of the Herc, P3, Grey Hound back in the day would only allow alternate fuels for a shorter duration.
With unleaded as it is now, which wasn't around back in my day, you can get away with this as an alternate fuel for a longer cycle time-duration of flight.

I do miss working on these bits of gear, and unfortunately with any forum it is easy to get into dispute with people.

Enjoy your day, I'm bugging out

 

[y_p_w]

How true, but for noticeably shorter durations and not for a constant load or full cycle of flight.
They are simply different animals for propulsion, one to reduce knock with compound turbines, superchargers in big Prat engines, one with a constant flame front coating the internals with a TEL. or normal fuel rated lead.
Using the same fuel is and economic of space and weight, but in-Flight manuals of C130's etc. the T56 of the Herc, P3, Grey Hound back in the day would only allow alternate fuels for a shorter duration.
With unleaded as it is now, which wasn't around back in my day, you can get away with this as an alternate fuel for a longer cycle time-duration of flight.

I do miss working on these bits of gear, and unfortunately with any forum it is easy to get into dispute with people.

Enjoy your day, I'm bugging out

The US Navy had considered using JP-4 as a universal fuel. It was of course jet fuel for most of their planes and helicopters, but could easily be used for boilers and obviously were fine for marine turbines. It would have likely worked with marine diesels too. But it was more expensive.

 

[Marcozi]

My second ship was a Spruance class destroyer with 4 GE LM2500 gas turbine engines. It ran on diesel fuel-marine, or JP5 which we carried for the helos.