Auto-RX and water in oil

[JHZR2]

Hello,

I want to run some auto-rx in my 91 BMW 318i for cleanup. My issue is this: the car is my commuter vehicle. It runs a tad bit cool anyway, but this is worse in the winter. It is noticable in terms of whitish oil residue under the filler cap and on the dipstick.

So, given that there is water present in my oil, and water is a polar molecule like the esters in auto-rx, will water have a competitive or otherwise negative effect on the efficacy of auto-rx?

I do not think that there would be a competition for surface between water and auto-rx, but in solution (the bulk oil), will their interaction be an issue?

Thanks,

JMH

 

[Shannow]

Great question...can't wait for the answers.

Well out of my depth.

 

[Oilgal]

I agree that is a really good question. Too deep for me.

Can't wait to find out.

 

[Gary Allan]

This IS a good one (question). I just add this into the can for kicking around purposes, ARX was not effected by brake clean in trying to remove it ..which all oil is. It was removed with water ..which no oil is. Not that this means anything beyond what occurred.

..but what it it does reduce the efficiency?

I would think that it would mean either a longer duration for the "time in sump" ..or a 2nd treatment.

 

[JMJNet]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Hello,

I want to run some auto-rx in my 91 BMW 318i for cleanup. My issue is this: the car is my commuter vehicle. It runs a tad bit cool anyway, but this is worse in the winter. It is noticable in terms of whitish oil residue under the filler cap and on the dipstick.

So, given that there is water present in my oil, and water is a polar molecule like the esters in auto-rx, will water have a competitive or otherwise negative effect on the efficacy of auto-rx?

I do not think that there would be a competition for surface between water and auto-rx, but in solution (the bulk oil), will their interaction be an issue?

Thanks,

JMH


Have you checked why you have water in your oil? Personally, I would have fixed that first before adding Auto-RX.

 

[uconn1150]

It's normal to have some condensation under the filler cap. As long as the oil isn't a milky color, you should be good to go. Once the engine reaches operating temp, the small amounts of water should be burned off.

 

[bmwtechguy]

Actually quite common in cars that are not run hot enough. I think that the design and function of the PCV system would certainly have an effect on this occurence, too. Maybe you could get it out and run it on the weekends and get it good and hot while running the ARX cycle. Just an idea, but then that would take some extra gas...

 

[JAG]

Block part of the radiator. I recently did it and my intake manifold is hotter after driving than it was before in the same ambient temp and driving length. So I'm sure it had an effect. You may have to experiment to find the right amount of blockage area.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: JMJNet


Have you checked why you have water in your oil? Personally, I would have fixed that first before adding Auto-RX.


See above... common... moreso in a dinky 1.8L engine, designed for autobahn speeds and driven as gently as possible to eek out max MPG.

The theoretical portion of the question holds regardless. What if someone had a messed up head gasket or intake manifold gasket - the cause could be from a lot of reasons, the application is universal.

JMH

 

[remmious]

You're right about the polarity issues. I'm not really familiar with Lanolin esters which Frank said made up the majority ARX but I know that diesters, phosphate esters and polyol esters can be affected greatly with the presense of water. They have what's called poor hydrolitic stability which basicly means they don't handle water well. I very well doubt the small amount of water present will affect your ARX treatment and is most likely just condensation build up as stated which is normal.

 

[darkdan]

You're over thinking things. I've ran auto-rx in MN winters and still have had stellar results.

It just solved the problem of a rear main leak in my daily driver....in winter.

 

[remmious]

Originally Posted By: darkdan
You're over thinking things. I've ran auto-rx in MN winters and still have had stellar results.

It just solved the problem of a rear main leak in my daily driver....in winter.


???????

 

[Frank]

Since oil is a carrier for Auto-Rx moisture in the oil is not creating an inability to keep the engine running. Adding Auto-Rx is not a problem in being effective.

uconn1150 has it in its proper persrective.

 

[Rick20]

Similar lanolin type esters within ARX have been successfully been formulated into water based cutting tool coolant/lubricants.
As I recall there was a significant amount of coupling involved to make a micro emulsion. It is possible that part of ARX will mate with the moisture. The aliphatic and polyol esters, also in ARX will not care for the moisture, as stated above.

I can't believe we are talking about a significant amount of moisture in this case. If you are trying to milk out all the mileage you can out of this unit, I would recommend blocking the radiator with card board to get this unit up to temperature quicker. Also check to see that the crankcase is breathing properly so that the moisture has an excape.

I would run the application as long as the oil on the dip stick isn't milky. If it is you really need to dump that oil.

 

[darkdan]

The only concern about auto-rx, winter, and it's effectiveness is the lack of heat during short trips.

Auto-rx obviously needs heat to work properly and if you drive just a few short miles at a time it doesn't warm up enough and for long enough.

Plus, 12 oz of auto-rx in 5 quarts of oil....how much water could there be competing for space?

Like I said, over thinking.

If there's enough water in the oil to really compete for space with auto-rx then you have bigger things to worry about!

 

[remmious]

Again we all agree there is nothing to be worried about with mere condensation and ARX. But we just went into further discussion about water and ARX, that's all. It's not that ARX is competing for space its how it reacts with waters. I wasn't familiar with ARX, nor Lanolin esters which are not used in any of my industrial oils, hydraulic fluids, compressor fluids, etc.. so I have no experience with them. Rick seems to have more experience with them. Esters have very strong bonds which allow them to handle high temperatures and combat oxidation but they have a weak spot with water. Demulsibility, film strength (hydrolitic stability) and other issues can occur.

Over thinking, maybe, but I like to know why things happen and how they work. Nothing wrong with putting information out there and digging deeper into stuff with discussions. Some people are satisfied with a recommendation from their mechanic, some want a little more explaination.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Also check to see that the crankcase is breathing properly so that the moisture has an excape.


I find this condition odd, myself. My BMW, and everyone else's that I've ever had opportunity to ask about, had the crankcase under very high vacuum (I don't know how they keep seals in the thing - but I think it's FULL manifold vacuum). You pulled the dipstick ..it stalls. No way to watch the valve train with a running engine through the oil cap. That level of vacuum would make it very difficult for moisture to condense. The aluminum head, in this engine anyway, makes warmup a very quick event.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Also check to see that the crankcase is breathing properly so that the moisture has an excape.


I find this condition odd, myself. My BMW, and everyone else's that I've ever had opportunity to ask about, had the crankcase under very high vacuum (I don't know how they keep seals in the thing - but I think it's FULL manifold vacuum). You pulled the dipstick ..it stalls. No way to watch the valve train with a running engine through the oil cap. That level of vacuum would make it very difficult for moisture to condense. The aluminum head, in this engine anyway, makes warmup a very quick event.


The M52, M52TU, M54, M62, M62TU engines all have low vacuum and generally stumble, but don't stall, if the crankcase is opened (dip stick, oil cap). I believe the spec is 3-4" of vacuum. The CCV/PCVs for these cars are also atypical. They're on the back of the block or underneath the intake manifold and cost around $80. I don't know about the M50 and older, or the newer N52/N62.