Auto insurance questions - UIM

[RhondaHonda]

OP- it sounds like you are asking about un/underinsured motorist bodily injury coverage which is much more common than UMPD, which covers the damage to your vehicle. Having higher UMBI coverage allows you to make a claim for pain and suffering that your medical coverage doesn’t pay for. If you had loss of your arm from an accident that another driver was responsible for, your medical coverage doesn’t cover that. You would make a claim against your UMBI for the pain and loss of your arm. It’s cheap coverage and I worked in the industry for years and saw it pay off many times. I carry $500k of UMBI.

 

[92saturnsl2]

OP- it sounds like you are asking about un/underinsured motorist bodily injury coverage which is much more common than UMPD, which covers the damage to your vehicle. Having higher UMBI coverage allows you to make a claim for pain and suffering that your medical coverage doesn’t pay for. If you had loss of your arm from an accident that another driver was responsible for, your medical coverage doesn’t cover that. You would make a claim against your UMBI for the pain and loss of your arm. It’s cheap coverage and I worked in the industry for years and saw it pay off many times. I carry $500k of UMBI.

Thank you for that explanation. So in a nutshell, my health insurance would cover putting me back together (crude way of putting it), but UIM coverage would allow me to claim for pain/suffering/lost wages/etc beyond ordinary injury/health related costs. Am I understanding it correctly?

UMPD is not available in Kentucky, any property damage (vehicle) claims pertaining to an un/underinsured motorist would have to fall under collision here, if you have it.

 

[hank2]

On almost all vehicle insurance policies, if the vehicle owner gives someone permission to drive their car, they are covered by the owner's insurance. You don't have to call your agent and give the name and details of everyone that drives your car (unless they live at the same address).

I'm not in insurance sales or the business but I think one scenario would be permitted use of the vehicle by owner. My MIL and FIL (late 80's) were recently rear-ended at a light by a fool. It turned out that the fool was driving a vehicle of a family member or friend without their permission. He may or may not have had a driver's license. The insurance carrier on that vehicle refused to coverage the liability as the driver was supposedly not given permission. No number of calls and staying in their faces changed anything. The carrier was one of the many web-based or 800 number minimal coverage companies. This one features TV ads of a cartoon character driving a convertible and saving you time. My family members had Collison coverage but they were out their $500 deductible. That was a hardship for them.

I have often wondered if some other VERY common scenarios would have effective liability coverage.

A driver borrowing a car (or even the insured) that does not have a valid driver's license. Isn't there usually a coverage clause about an auto being legally operated?

A car being driven that has an expired registration. An auto being legally used? Effective negating clause?

A car being driven that has an expired safety inspection? Illegal use of vehicle?

A rental car being driven by someone other than the contracted client. Under age to rent themselves?

 

[DuckRyder]

Thank you for that explanation. So in a nutshell, my health insurance would cover putting me back together (crude way of putting it), but UIM coverage would allow me to claim for pain/suffering/lost wages/etc beyond ordinary injury/health related costs. Am I understanding it correctly? ...

Yes. Typically health insurance will try to recover from an auto accident. Most people will advise you to have at least enough med pay or PIP to cover your health insurance deductible and maximum out of pocket.

 

[RhondaHonda]

Thank you for that explanation. So in a nutshell, my health insurance would cover putting me back together (crude way of putting it), but UIM coverage would allow me to claim for pain/suffering/lost wages/etc beyond ordinary injury/health related costs. Am I understanding it correctly?

UMPD is not available in Kentucky, any property damage (vehicle) claims pertaining to an un/underinsured motorist would have to fall under collision here, if you have it.

Exactly. Hopefully you never need to use it, but it’s a cheap coverage to have. Higher UM limits will require you to have higher liability limits as well.

 

[Hall]

the fool was driving a vehicle of a family member or friend without their permission. He may or may not have had a driver's license. The insurance carrier on that vehicle refused to coverage the liability as the driver was supposedly not given permission. No number of calls and staying in their faces changed anything.

No insurance company is going to provide coverage in that situation. That's like expecting your insurance to provide coverage if someone steals your car and gets into a crash.

 

[92saturnsl2]

It turned out that the fool was driving a vehicle of a family member or friend without their permission. He may or may not have had a driver's license. The insurance carrier on that vehicle refused to coverage the liability as the driver was supposedly not given permission.

What typically happens in that scenario is the insurance company pays out, unless the insured can prove that the vehicle was used without permission-- this is usually obtained through a police report. Basically they assume you know where your car is, who's using it, and if you don't they expect a stolen vehicle report or something documenting this. This is to keep people from eschewing responsibility by just saying so and so didn't have permission. Unless of course, the driver admits to using the car without permission, which I suspect few do, as that's essentially stealing a vehicle.

I can't speak for every insurance company, but I'm fairly certain most/all of the major insurance companies operate this way.

 

[92saturnsl2]

Thanks everyone for the info, it certainly helps me out. I've always declined UM coverage, but for the ~$30/6 mos, it's probably money well spent. I can't imagine it helping though except for severe accidents where lost wages/pain/suffering/etc. are involved. Kentucky has mandatory no-fault insurance, so I have $10K PIP (state minimum) that could potentially cover any co-pays/deductibles/max health insurance out of pocket in any scenario. I'll have to look into that to see if PIP is secondary after medical insurance, or primary.

I have a few more quotes to get, but currently it's looking like Geico and Progressive are fairly comparable in price. I have a hankering to drop Geico for no other reason than that they raised my rates an obscene amount for no reason. But nowadays companies can justify any price increase simply by mentioning the I-word. That won't stop until demand drops, sadly.

 

[alarmguy]

My auto insurance renews next month and Geico has raised my rates almost 20% (Merry Christmas!) despite not having any claims or violations. I shop around every 6 months religiously, and sadly, Geico is still the least expensive for the amount of coverage I want, of all the major carriers I've tried.

My question is pertaining to Uninsured Motorist / Underinsured Motorist coverage. The various insurance websites explain that it covers bodily injury resulting from un/underinsured motorists. How does that benefit me beyond my regular health insurance, which I assume would cover injuries from an auto accident? My health insurance has a very low annual deductible/max out of pocket cost, so I'm not particularly worried about that.

What if you have passengers in the vehicle without health insurance?
God forbid you are in a bad accident, no longer able to work, need lifetime care or even care for a short period of time. More or less your Insurance company is not going to pay for your loss of income or possibly a lifetime loss of income ect ... ect.
Health Ins will get you to a "living state" then you are on your own with no support that you may need or that of anyone in your vehicle who may sue you for care as well.
All states have different insurance regulations/no fault ect. So impossible to say, it looks like you are really aware of your state regulations as I just saw your comment on "no fault" It really just depends if you want to roll the dice, the reason "uninsured" and underinsured is so expensive is a tremendous amount of claims are paid on that coverage which in itself tells a story. My state is scary with the amount of under insured and people without insurance and carry the same amount on both of those as I do my liability. Off the top of my head that is 250/500 for all three categories or 300/500.

Anyway, what caught my eye is you shop around every 6 months or so, that is excellent. I have been doing that for over a decade now and saved boat loads of money as you may know, called insurance rate creep by staying with any company too long. I remember having Geico for a long periods of times, on and off going back decades, I might still have them on my motorcycle, like anything a cool of the dice, they dont come close to what I pay on my cars/truck.

Try this one, I have been using esurance for years now on my car and truck, no one comes close but we all know its a roll of the dice depending on where you live, credit score ect. Anyway, if you haven't tried it, check it out. For the life of me I cant find a lower rate anyplace and drives me nuts! I constantly check rates online, Ill cancel a policy at anytime even a few weeks into a new policy if I find a cheaper rate.

Esurance is owned by Allstate, its Allstate's way of grabbing the lower profit internet customer while maintaining their traditional model. (my point of view)

Esurance Online Car Insurance

See how much you can save on reliable, affordable car insurance. Get your free quote online or over the phone and compare auto insurance rates in minutes.

www.esurance.com

Ill be curious if you have tried them.

 

[92saturnsl2]

What if you have passengers in the vehicle without health insurance?
God forbid you are in a bad accident, no longer able to work, need lifetime care or even care for a short period of time. More or less your Insurance company is not going to pay for your loss of income or possibly a lifetime loss of income ect ... ect.
Health Ins will get you to a "living state" then you are on your own with no support that you may need or that of anyone in your vehicle who may sue you for care as well.
All states have different insurance regulations/no fault ect. So impossible to say, it looks like you are really aware of your state regulations as I just saw your comment on "no fault" It really just depends if you want to roll the dice, the reason "uninsured" and underinsured is so expensive is a tremendous amount of claims are paid on that coverage which in itself tells a story. My state is scary with the amount of under insured and people without insurance and carry the same amount on both of those as I do my liability. Off the top of my head that is 250/500 for all three categories or 300/500.

Anyway, what caught my eye is you shop around every 6 months or so, that is excellent. I have been doing that for over a decade now and saved boat loads of money as you may know, called insurance rate creep by staying with any company too long. I remember having Geico for a long periods of times, on and off going back decades, I might still have them on my motorcycle, like anything a cool of the dice, they dont come close to what I pay on my cars/truck.

Try this one, I have been using esurance for years now on my car and truck, no one comes close but we all know its a roll of the dice depending on where you live, credit score ect. Anyway, if you haven't tried it, check it out. For the life of me I cant find a lower rate anyplace and drives me nuts! I constantly check rates online, Ill cancel a policy at anytime even a few weeks into a new policy if I find a cheaper rate.

Esurance is owned by Allstate, its Allstate's way of grabbing the lower profit internet customer while maintaining their traditional model. (my point of view)

Esurance Online Car Insurance

See how much you can save on reliable, affordable car insurance. Get your free quote online or over the phone and compare auto insurance rates in minutes.

www.esurance.com

Ill be curious if you have tried them.

Those are all great points about the UIM coverage, appreciate the input on that.

Indeed, I've used Esurance (started with them long before Allstate bought them out) back when the online-only insurance model was in its infancy. Probably 2004-ish is when I first used them..? They were dirt cheap and I'm far from an insurance snob. As far as I'm concerned, there's consumer protection laws making sure I get what I pay for when it comes to insurance, so I don't need any red carpets, just a good price for the coverage I want. Long story short, I had a claim with them back in 2006 or so (rear ended someone with $6k damage to my truck, basically nothing to the other driver, didn't even dent his bumper) and they were excellent to work with. I used them off and on (due to insurance creep, as you mentioned, I'd often switch companies every 6-12 months) until around 2016-ish. But it seemed like overnight their rates went through the roof. In 2017 I moved to Kentucky from Colorado, so perhaps that had a lot to do with it. Though I still live in a fairly rural area, so the jury is still out whether moving to a new state contributed to the huge price increase. I also noticed around that time that Esurance was becoming more fully integrated with Allstate (even though AS aquired Esurance in or around 2011), so maybe their pricing models changed. Who knows, but presently they're about 40-50% more expensive than what Geico and Progressive are quoting me. They've been that way for some time now and I recheck with them every 6 months. Come to think of it, their price is pretty close to what Allstate quotes me...

 

[CKN]

Those are all great points about the UIM coverage, appreciate the input on that.

Indeed, I've used Esurance (started with them long before Allstate bought them out) back when the online-only insurance model was in its infancy. Probably 2004-ish is when I first used them..? They were dirt cheap and I'm far from an insurance snob. As far as I'm concerned, there's consumer protection laws making sure I get what I pay for when it comes to insurance, so I don't need any red carpets, just a good price for the coverage I want. Long story short, I had a claim with them back in 2006 or so (rear ended someone with $6k damage to my truck, basically nothing to the other driver, didn't even dent his bumper) and they were excellent to work with. I used them off and on (due to insurance creep, as you mentioned, I'd often switch companies every 6-12 months) until around 2016-ish. But it seemed like overnight their rates went through the roof. In 2017 I moved to Kentucky from Colorado, so perhaps that had a lot to do with it. Though I still live in a fairly rural area, so the jury is still out whether moving to a new state contributed to the huge price increase. I also noticed around that time that Esurance was becoming more fully integrated with Allstate (even though AS aquired Esurance in or around 2011), so maybe their pricing models changed. Who knows, but presently they're about 40-50% more expensive than what Geico and Progressive are quoting me. They've been that way for some time now and I recheck with them every 6 months. Come to think of it, their price is pretty close to what Allstate quotes me...

E-Insurance spec'ed a Chinese replacement front bumper for my Son's car. The body shop told the e-Insurance the bumper would eventually fall off-and that's what happened. So they had to pay for a quality one a few months later. Maybe I'm different-and maybe this doesn't apply to you. I'm sitting in a house that's now worth a half million dollars, and two vehicles that exceed $60,000.00 in value-I don't want the "cheapest Insurance.

 

[92saturnsl2]

E-Insurance spec'ed a Chinese replacement front bumper for my Son's car. The body shop told the e-Insurance the bumper would eventually fall off-and that's what happened. So they had to pay for a quality one a few months later. Maybe I'm different-and maybe this doesn't apply to you. I'm sitting in a house that's now worth a half million dollars, and two vehicles that exceed $60,000.00 in value-I don't want the "cheapest Insurance.

Aftermarket parts used by insurance companies usually have to be CAPA certified, but that's largely dictated by the laws in your state. The majority of aftermarket parts come from China, so that's hardly a surprise.

If you think State Farm, Allstate, Liberty Mutual, (insert expensive insurance company name here) don't use aftermarket parts where available, you're fooling yourself. You can request that the insurance company use OEM parts, but they are not required to unless state law requires it; if not, and you insist they use OEM parts, they can deny the claim or charge you the difference. Read the fine print. I'd love to see the fine print on your insurance policy that specifically states they will use only OEM parts. You won't post it because it doesn't exist, unless you added an option/rider to your policy to cover OEM parts.

Some people get the warm and fuzzies over a certain brand insurance, I'm not one of them and you won't convince me otherwise, regardless of how much my home or cars are worth. It's coverage that matters to me, not the company. If X company gives me a 300/500K policy for the same price as company Y's 100/300K, I'd be a fool not to choose the former. JMHO.

 

[Job]

I think it works this way. If you have the two insurance coverages and get injured the auto insurance picks up after the injured’s health insurance coverage doesn't pay. It would be in the policy of each insurance.
What if you have passengers and they may or not have health insurance? Or someone is just late on a premium and thinks they have health insurance but don’t? The uninsured driver has nothing to get money out of them, who pays? Not sure myself about it.
BTW, I get two cars insured for less than if I got rid of one car through Costco. Another reason I bought and kept my T100. I save about $100 per year over if I had the one car. Multi car discount.

 

[92saturnsl2]

What if you have passengers and they may or not have health insurance? Or someone is just late on a premium and thinks they have health insurance but don’t? The uninsured driver has nothing to get money out of them, who pays? Not sure myself about it.

That's something I never even considered but a couple people mentioned it and it's a great point. I don't typically have other people riding with me, but it happens on occasion. For the extra few bucks a month extra that it costs, I'm sure the UIM coverage is worth it.

 

[CKN]

Aftermarket parts used by insurance companies usually have to be CAPA certified, but that's largely dictated by the laws in your state. The majority of aftermarket parts come from China, so that's hardly a surprise.

If you think State Farm, Allstate, Liberty Mutual, (insert expensive insurance company name here) don't use aftermarket parts where available, you're fooling yourself. You can request that the insurance company use OEM parts, but they are not required to unless state law requires it; if not, and you insist they use OEM parts, they can deny the claim or charge you the difference. Read the fine print. I'd love to see the fine print on your insurance policy that specifically states they will use only OEM parts. You won't post it because it doesn't exist, unless you added an option/rider to your policy to cover OEM parts.

Some people get the warm and fuzzies over a certain brand insurance, I'm not one of them and you won't convince me otherwise, regardless of how much my home or cars are worth. It's coverage that matters to me, not the company. If X company gives me a 300/500K policy for the same price as company Y's 100/300K, I'd be a fool not to choose the former. JMHO.

Not auto related but...I had coverage under Liberty Mutual with a pipe broke and flooded my basement. They sent a crew out at 9 p.m. that night-and back the next day. THEY PAID EVERTHING ($7,000.00/claim) without any issues whatsoever. They even paid for my hotel room because I told them I couldn't sleep because of the noise of the fans/dryers. So yea-some insurance companies are better than others. I personally know several people who have had major issues with Internet Based (cheap) Insurance providers. IMHO if your sitting on assets of any kind-you have to be foolish to go this route. Again-JMHO.

 

[alarmguy]

... Though I still live in a fairly rural area, so the jury is still out whether moving to a new state contributed to the huge price increase. I also noticed around that time that Esurance was becoming more fully integrated with Allstate (even though AS aquired Esurance in or around 2011), so maybe their pricing models changed. Who knows, but presently they're about 40-50% more expensive than what Geico and Progressive are quoting me. They've been that way for some time now and I recheck with them every 6 months. Come to think of it, their price is pretty close to what Allstate quotes me...

Yeah, can't disagree with anything you said. Insurance companies price what a policy is worth to them.
A couple years now with assurance I just can't find cheaper insurance for my car and truck. (Yet doesnt mean my next door neighbor isnt getting ripped off on his policy.)
So I am still with them, history says one day they will go up and I will switch again or its possible in their database AI says I will switch and they will hold my price, go figure.

Ironically not sure if I mentioned this, I carry a fair amount of insurance, Im well covered, everything I have is with different companies!
Don't believe those BS multi policy discounts ect. I never was able to find a multi discount cheaper then getting quotes from different companies on ALL my insured items/toys. To this day I still try. Dont get me wrong many years ago still young and stupid I thought I was getting a great price from State Farm for all my insured stuff .... any way funny you mentioned it, then I moved South and found out I was way over paying in my new state.
So my car and truck is with esurance. Off the top of my head my motorcycle is insured with progressive, our boat with geico and our house with Travelers ! *LOL*

Low price always wins, no matter how far into the policy I am, I have cancelled policies 2 weeks into a 1 year or 6 month policy for a lower rate with another company. Much of society thinks or waits until renewal time, there is no reason to wait find a cheaper rate and start saving money right away because I think the insurance companies know once most people get their renewal odds are low they will switch, too busy to bother or just dont or they forget and think its too late. I sometimes can't believe how little I pay and I carry substantial policies.

As as "reviews" or comments on insurance companies in forums I take with a grain of salt. Nothing wrong with hearing positive comments, helps reassure some people but the negative, well, someone always knows someone who have a complaint with a company, any company so forums to me are useless with insurance. Not that they are wrong in anyway but things can happen with any company.Its the most regulated industry in the country, you will get paid if you deserve to get paid.
Personally, fingers crossed it will be EXTREMELY unlikely over your lifetime that you will have a major event that even requires insurance never mind what company does or doesnt do. If there is a valid claim it has to be paid. An insurance policy is fact, spelled out what you are paying for and what they are covering.

 

[DwightFrye]

By the end of the year the population of the US will have increased by about 2 million people. They will have been relocated to many different states. It is likely that 3/4 of a million of them will be driving in the US. Think about that for a minute.
You better have UIM.

 

[92saturnsl2]

Don't believe those BS multi policy discounts ect. I never was able to find a multi discount cheaper then getting quotes from different companies on ALL my insured items/toys. To this day I still try.

I've not had any luck either. I've tried combining, but it never works out. I usually give them the chance, even though I know it will be more expensive because I've already tried getting a quote through X, Y, Z company individually. It's substantially more expensive (to the tune of 40%+ more) if I were to combine with one company.

Low price always wins, no matter how far into the policy I am, I have cancelled policies 2 weeks into a 1 year or 6 month policy for a lower rate with another company. Much of society thinks or waits until renewal time, there is no reason to wait find a cheaper rate and start saving money right away because I think the insurance companies know once most people get their renewal odds are low they will switch, too busy to bother or just dont or they forget and think its too late. I sometimes can't believe how little I pay and I carry substantial policies.

Same here. I'm absolutely floored by what some people pay in auto insurance. I have a good buddy at work (comparable age and driving record) that pays $340 a month for insurance on 3 vehicles (1 full coverage) for him and his wife. I pay less than half that for four vehicles (two full coverage) with substantially better coverage. Why? Because he's concerned with company (and their perceived reputation) and is too lazy to shop around, or doesn't know how to. I've done it so much that it takes me less than 5 minutes to fill out an online rate quote. I can have 7-8+ companies checked out in 45 minutes tops. Some companies require you to go halfway through the buy process (but you can abort before you hit the ultimate purchase button that seals the deal) to get an EXACT quote-- I assume it's because they want you semi-committed before they pay to acquire your driving record and insurance history. In 20+ years I've never had an online price change after purchasing if I go through the verification process (you know when you get there if they ask for drivers license number). I have zero qualms with switching a month in if I find a better rate, but I typically only check every 6 mos. When I lived in Missouri, state law allowed them to charge a cancellation fee if you ended the policy before the 6 months was up, so that's a hiccup in some states.

.Its the most regulated industry in the country, you will get paid if you deserve to get paid.

Personally, fingers crossed it will be EXTREMELY unlikely over your lifetime that you will have a major event that even requires insurance never mind what company does or doesnt do. If there is a valid claim it has to be paid. An insurance policy is fact, spelled out what you are paying for and what they are covering.

Amen. Insurance is FACT, an excellent way of putting it. That said, I'm not going to pretend that some companies aren't better than others in some areas-- customer service, namely. But for the amount I use insurance (so far it's been once every decade or so), I can put up with that.

One has to realize that an insurance company does not exist or make money by giving you benefits beyond what's on the legal binding document you agreed to. That means company A and company B are still going to use aftermarket parts where state law allows. And my X and Y coverage is X and Y coverage, regardless of insurance company. Some may be easier to get ahold of, quicker call backs, etc. That fluff is not worth an extra $50-100 a month to me. So there are indeed some nuances, but I care about the nuts and bolts which is amount of coverage versus price.

As far as aggressively defending me in a claim, EVERY insurance company is interested in their bottom line. So the difference in aggressiveness/ legal tactics in my estimation, is minimal between companies. All ins. companies' primary concern is minimizing their exposure which requires a robust legal defense. If they fail to deliver that, they're not likely to stay in business long.

The usual push-back from people that don't agree with shopping around or buying insurance online is something like this: "you're being a cheapskate and want the lowest price (implying low coverage), MY stuff is worth protecting." I don't agree with that sentiment at all. I have excellent coverage, I just don't feel like overpaying for it-- paying for a local agent/sales rep that I'll VERY rarely use, or perceived "quality" which doesn't really exist anymore (in my opinion) in today's tightly regulated, commoditized market.

 

[alarmguy]

Well said ^^^ I completely agree, excellent point about the quotes, I too get them in minutes, (maybe it will help some in here) when you get quotes most all insurance companies share the same database. As soon as you put your address in to start with quotes your vehicles (or home ect) will pop up on your screen and it will ask you which of the vehicles do you want quotes on.

I wasn't aware some states might have a cancellation fee on insurance. None here in SC either, but I do agree most times I only check around renewal time but with that said, that is after a couple years now I just can't find lower rates, though I have fun checking.

I have even cancelled my home insurance after my bank paid for the renewal, I found a cheaper quote and used my credit card to pay the new policy since my bank already paid the old policy and then let the bank work it out with my escrow which turned out to be a non event as the old company sent a refund check directly to my house.
Because of this diligence and not allowing home insurance companies to raise my rate I am still paying what I did 15 years ago (after switching companies no less then 5 times) AND there isn't another company with comes within a few hundred dollars of it and most its more like $600 to $700 more a year.
Its been so constant now (no rate creep) with Travelers that I am starting to wonder if that part of the program is turned off on my policy since my history shows constant switching of companies. I have never been with a home insurance company this long, must be at least 3 years now and little to no increases... when I say little to no, Im talking on the scale of maybe a total of $60 over the last couple years. Never more then $10 or $20 a year and I can't find anyone near the price I have.

Just a side note;
I am not in anyway, shape or form known as someone who is a "cheap" person.
I just LOVE making money using my computer. Always loved computing and have been making money with them since 1995. Been saving money and ordering online even back then, when my now family members/siblings/parents act would be like "you gave out your credit card numbers on the computer!?!?!?" *LOL*
Ahh... credit cards another thread someday... people to this day still do not understand they are not responsible for fraud on a credit card and why they should never use a debt card. Though I just did post in another thread, this year was an extraordinary one as far as cash back, credit cards companies paid my wife and I cask back (in rough numbers) over $2000 .... all for nothing. Granted you do need a good credit score but that goes for ins too.

 

[eljefino]

That's like expecting your insurance to provide coverage if someone steals your car and gets into a crash.

They actually would cover that if you took reasonable steps to secure it, eg you locked the car and didn't broadcast that you kept your keys on your nightstand. If you had full coverage, they'd pay you for the car under the comp section, and they'd defend you against the liability of the driver as well as against their paying for his actions. The (felon) driver himself would be on the hook for the damage to both your car and what he ran into.

They wouldn't cover if you had a licensed 16 year old kid living with you but not listed as a driver on the policy, he had the keys "somehow", but after the wreck you tried denying that you lent it to him.