Anyone interested in NLP-Neuro Linguistic Program

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Shannow

Shannow

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I first became interested in NLP after hearing some speeches in the lead-up to a US election (9 years ago give or take), that let me feeling great...then questioning why I was feeling great, then researching and realising that Neuro Linguistic Programming was integral to the construction of those speeches.

More recently (like this year), I've been using NLP to help my kids through issues of bullying (by teachers nontheless), and some familial issues in the extended family, and simply getting over negative commentary...it really works.

Have had a passing interest in this aspect too, but not really concentrating on it as an exercise.


Boned up on it pretty seriously this week, with an investigation that I was undertaking, and mixed witness evidence.

It really works. Where interviewees were replaying events that they recalled, the VR, AR (Visual and Audio Remmbered) movements are actually quite pronounced if you are paying attention...if the story is being manipulated, the VC, and AC (Visual and Audio Constructed) show up.

I can imagine that it could make life with your family heckish if you were to integrate it into avery conversation, but as a tool for a purpose, it's the real deal.
 
Yeah, I'm into this stuff somewhat. It's really just a subset of human psychology and relational techniques, which are important to have at least some understanding of.

I'm reminded of the one good way I've heard to distinguish persuasion from manipulation: If being completely honest about your methods would make the person trust you more, it's persuasion; if that explanation would blow things up, it's manipulation. It's the difference between "I want to listen so you know I'm interested in your perspective" and "I want to hear you talk so I know which buttons to push."

IME, some of what people call NLP is just good techniques for spotting deception, creating psychological safety in conversation, getting your point across in a resonant way, etc. Useful things for anything related to maintaining relationships, including persuasion, which everyone should know. If nothing else, what you say is going to take some kind of shape whether you intend it or not; you might as well exercise intent.

At the same time, a lot of NLP is straight-up manipulation by the above definition. And many of its advocates seem to make no apology for that.
 
Great definitions.

Had some leadership training last year, (including see listen speak), and re-arranged my office to help, and it's been great for communication and trust.

NLP was touched on as "semi hypnotic", which gets back to your excellent definitions.

e.g.

The technique that I am using with my kids, for conversations that they carry around, and are dragging them down emotionally...they don't even have to tell me what the problem is...it could be me for all I know.

get them to
* replay the problem conversation in their head, and identify the point on their head that the voice "resides"...do it a handfull of times
* pick the diametrically opposite point on their head, and make exactly the same conversation come from the new point...invariably, they describe it as overhearing the conversation, rather than being the victim of it...get them to "overhear it" multiple times.
* point out that the original issue no longer has power over their feelings, and get them to repeat the conversation in their favourite cartoon character's voice, from the new perspective, and repeat 4-5 times.

We had pre-exam meltdown mid week, from a bullying math teacher who has 100+ 14 year olds convinced that to get in the bottom 70% of participants will wreck their lives.

5 minutes went from tears to laughter. Then she took her textbook, confidently, and nailed 4 (formerly) "impossible" algebra questions before bed.

She's happy because she doesn't have to tell me, I'm happy because you can see the emotional impact lessen, and the confidence build.
 
That stuff is still around? It was well debunked back in the 80s when it first emerged and a lot of self-help gurus starting spouting off about it and developed a cult following. It follows the typical pattern of junk science; develop a model that can't be verified, then develop techniques that often don't have anything to do with the models or sources, backed up by anecdotes and "testimonials" as a measurement of how well it works. Then add the promise of results; money, success, psychological, personal, all of which should be a red flag that it's just more new age self-help nonsense.

Bottom line; it boils down to another pop-culture, self-help system that markets itself as science. I did get a laugh out of it when the two "founders", ended up suing each other a few years ago.
 
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
debunked


sweet, so you can link me to that can't you ?

(not like your TV and brain volume dribble that you were on last year...which was, in and of itself debunked, but you stopped answering)
 
Fascinating topic. I participated in leadership effectiveness training (Dr. Gordon) many years ago and see tidbits of similar techniques in this NLP process.

I could see that people that live via John Wayne isms might be frightened by this type of subject matter. "[censored], I’m the stuff men are made of!"
 
Funny. I was talking to my wife the other day about a meeting we had with official at City hall.

It seemed we had fallen into our usual roles where my wife pays attention to the details of what is being said. While I get the sense of 'where the guy might be comming from' But his words just (more or less) wash over me.

There is so much more to comunication than just words.

Here is an experiment. With someone about 10 feet away from you, repeat a phrase, the secound time you repeat it raise your eyelids aboue 1/16th of an inch, or tighten the muscles around your mouth about the same amount.

Most people, even if their eyesight is not 20/20, will sense a change in your manor/mood often without realising you facial expression actually changed.
 
Over the seven years I belonged to Toastmasters, body language and facial expressions were regularly paid attention to during role evaluations. Worked for me since as a child I could discern whether someone was lying or [censored]'ng me. Red flags shoot up when their words and facial expressions and body language conflict.

Another reason I'd never trust any dating site nor information contained therein.

Far better to look someone in the eye and observe their actions over time and go with that.

Re: NLP. I remember this along with many other 'techniques', 'technologies' from the old baby boomers who grew up in the 40's & 50's.

If it works for your daughter, then OK. However, I'd suggest a more direct approach: Any math teacher with a reputation for bullying kids needs an immediate and forceful face-to-face confrontation with an adult capable of delivering such...and backing it up.

Why hack at the leaves when going after the root is far more effective?

Problem solved.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
However, I'd suggest a more direct approach: Any math teacher with a reputation for bullying kids needs an immediate and forceful face-to-face confrontation with an adult capable of delivering such...and backing it up.

Why hack at the leaves when going after the root is far more effective?

Problem solved.


It's more institutionalised than that...it's his conversations that trigger the meltdowns.

Australia years ago adopted "NAPLAN" testing where kids would do nationwide standardised tests every two years of their schooling. Was supposed to be used to judge teacher and school performance.

As usual, and clearly should have been evident to the geniuses developing the process, the schools and teachers started teaching only the NAPLAN stuff, spending months concentrating on the test curriculum, rather than educating properly...week leading up to the testing, zero tolerance in terms of behaviour is enforced, and miraculously all the "naughty" kids with ADD and the like get suspended for a week.

My state Govt decided to ride on the coat tails of this testing, and this year brought in the rules that unless you get a "band 8" in each of three exams (reading, writing and numeracy). There are 10 bands, (75% of students get a band 7 or below) all the way through the high school testing, you can't get a "Higher School Certificate" (High school diploma ??? at the end of year 12).

So state wide, teachers have been hammering the kids on "band 8 or you won't get an HSC, and therefore won't get a job or higher education...it's endemic across the state.

I've got no doubt that the thing will be dropped in her next three years of schooling.

Stress and self doubt are your own personal reaction to what's going on around you, so I'm trying to give the children the ability to take the emotion down, and focus.

So we worked on that the night before, did a small handfull of the hardest questions, and ensured she got to school right at the last minute to avoid all the other panicking teenagers.
 
Re: NAPLAN. Similiar going on here in Tx & probably rest of the USA. Also teaching to-the-test going on. LOTS & LOTS OF HOMEWORK. My neighbors kids lose sight of the point after awhile.

I remember my 5th grade teacher had a sign right beside the classroom wall clock: "Time Passes. Will You?" Made all of us really nervous as she was a hard [censored].
 
As much as I hate to agree with Pops, NLP has indeed been discredited and seems to be more or less "guru" marketing at this point. From Wiki:

Quote:
NLP has since been overwhelmingly discredited scientifically,[9][10] but continues to be marketed by some hypnotherapists and by some companies that organize seminars and workshops on management training for businesses.[11] There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates and it has been discredited as a pseudoscience by experts.[9][12] Scientific reviews state that NLP is based on outdated metaphors of how the brain works that are inconsistent with current neurological theory and contain numerous factual errors.[13][14] Reviews also found that all of the supportive research on NLP contained significant methodological flaws and that there were three times as many studies of a much higher quality that failed to reproduce the "extraordinary claims" made by Bandler, Grinder, and other NLP practitioners.[10][12] Even so, NLP has been adopted by some hypnotherapists and also by companies that run seminars marketed as leadership training to businesses and government agencies.[11][13]


Not saying that communication and attempting to apply a methodology to self-improvement and outcomes is necessarily a bad thing and you may indeed notice improvements in certain facets of interactions with others, but it's not due to any theoretical validity of NLP. It's simply outdated pseudoscience pushed by charlatans...
 
Obviously, not everyone concurs with Wikipedia. If NLP has been so discredited, then why is research still ongoing and results are indicating that NLP "might" have some merit?

2012 research published by Mayo Clinic: https://raisingawarenessforcfs.wordpress...ning-technique/

2014 research published acknowledging potential to treat PTSD: http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/MHRJ-08-2014-0026

Of course I am cherry picking information. Maybe someone here will take the time to present a better literature review.
 
Forgot to add this thread to my watch list and dropped the ball. Catch-up time!


Originally Posted By: Shannow

The technique that I am using with my kids, for conversations that they carry around, and are dragging them down emotionally...they don't even have to tell me what the problem is...it could be me for all I know.

get them to
* replay the problem conversation in their head, and identify the point on their head that the voice "resides"...do it a handfull of times
* pick the diametrically opposite point on their head, and make exactly the same conversation come from the new point...invariably, they describe it as overhearing the conversation, rather than being the victim of it...get them to "overhear it" multiple times.
* point out that the original issue no longer has power over their feelings, and get them to repeat the conversation in their favourite cartoon character's voice, from the new perspective, and repeat 4-5 times.

We had pre-exam meltdown mid week, from a bullying math teacher who has 100+ 14 year olds convinced that to get in the bottom 70% of participants will wreck their lives.

5 minutes went from tears to laughter. Then she took her textbook, confidently, and nailed 4 (formerly) "impossible" algebra questions before bed.

She's happy because she doesn't have to tell me, I'm happy because you can see the emotional impact lessen, and the confidence build.

Not surprised she nailed the "impossible" algebra questions. Being able to exercise intent, even on one's own perceptions, is a powerful ability.

We tend to think of math as a rational task that has nothing to do with emotionality, so it seems weird that one's internal state should affect one's ability to do math. Turns out it can, in a big way. The feeling of having exhausted your ability is usually just your brain interfering to stop you from doing something unpleasant and conserve energy for something more worthwhile. So, someone in a poor mental state can feel like they can't do something, when in reality their brain is just turning them away from the stress. Fix the mental state, and you unlock the ability.

One area where this is particularly salient is... girls and math. Girls are often bombarded by ambient signals that math isn't for them, they won't be as good at it as boys, etc. It's not true! And to the extent that it ever was true, that was only because of those ambient social pressures. But when an idea is constantly coming at you from all sides, for years... you tend to internalize it. Breaking that idea -- or at least chipping away at it -- is a great thing.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
If it works for your daughter, then OK. However, I'd suggest a more direct approach: Any math teacher with a reputation for bullying kids needs an immediate and forceful face-to-face confrontation with an adult capable of delivering such...and backing it up.

Why hack at the leaves when going after the root is far more effective?

Problem solved.

Some of the best advice I've ever heard: If a problem is 98% someone else's fault, and 2% your fault, don't accept more than that 2%. At the same time, that 2% is the part you're accountable for. Even though it's only 2%, it's still yours, so it's still on you to lock it down.

So, heck yeah the teacher/school/system should be confronted. If that works, it'll definitely be far more effective on this one issue. And it'll positively affect a lot of people besides Shannow's daughter.

At the same time, this is also an opportunity for her to gain and exercise an important skill. Similar challenges WILL come up later in her life. By improving herself in response to this one, she'll be better equipped for those later ones.
 
Regarding NLP:

Yeah, a lot of its original content has been debunked. At the same time, it seems to have become an umbrella term for general persuasive/manipulative techniques.

That's my understanding, anyway. Happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong.
 
Funny that it popped up again after being brought up in a Cafe thread of all things the other day by Wikifresh

At a party tonight, and my nephews girlfriend is part way through her university sports psychology degree.

She agreed that they have picked the eyes out of nlp, and are using parts of it under different names... Her beef with the name nlp was that there are schools that sit for two weeks then issues a certificate, versus 4 years in her case for a degree.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Funny that it popped up again after being brought up in a Cafe thread of all things the other day by Wikifresh


Nope, Shallow, read about NLP a while ago...

Perhaps I'll share one day when you're not being such a [censored]. You're the one that brought up "science" LOL, not me...

The "science" is that NLP is largely [censored] as a methodological approach because you essentially follow the precepts anyways. It's like codifying how to eat soup...

Quote:
At a party tonight, and my nephews girlfriend is part way through her university sports psychology degree.

She agreed that they have picked the eyes out of nlp, and are using parts of it under different names... Her beef with the name nlp was that there are schools that sit for two weeks then issues a certificate, versus 4 years in her case for a degree.




Well she's a bright one, isn't she?
smile.gif
He should definitely marry her...

NLP and Shamwow! They'll make you reach your full human potential!!! And pick up girls!!!
8c8881134-shamwowguy.nbcnews-ux-600-700.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Obviously, not everyone concurs with Wikipedia. If NLP has been so discredited, then why is research still ongoing and results are indicating that NLP "might" have some merit?

2012 research published by Mayo Clinic: https://raisingawarenessforcfs.wordpress...ning-technique/

2014 research published acknowledging potential to treat PTSD: http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/MHRJ-08-2014-0026

Of course I am cherry picking information. Maybe someone here will take the time to present a better literature review.




Obviously some are still doing research into NLP, just like some are doing research into parapsychology and the "Ganzfeld Experiment".

Research is fine, but that doesn't validate the underlying fact that most scientists consider the Ganzfeld Experiment to have been debunked and those carrying out research at universities might "want to believe" and are carrying out "experiments" and bad research tainted with bias and a lack of control...
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Regarding NLP:

Yeah, a lot of its original content has been debunked. At the same time, it seems to have become an umbrella term for general persuasive/manipulative techniques.

That's my understanding, anyway. Happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong.


IMHO I'm not saying there isn't anything to NLP or that some practitioners do not have success at improving themselves. What I am saying is that NLP sets up a construct giving a sort of false confidence that allows them a context to 'fake it until they make it'. But that doesn't legitimize NLP scientifically, many manipulative and persuasive people simply grow up that way and have learned from experience. If one is looking to use NLP to manipulate people, then they're already manipulative and probably a bit of a [censored] and NLP is just giving them a framework for their approach. At the same time, NLP might retard people by having them attach themselves to an almost dogmatic, theological framework that stifles personal innovation and creativity...
 
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