Has anyone here for a second thought that maybe just maybe Mobil has a reason for making their 0w20 a little heavier than TGMO 0w20? After all if they are capable of making the TGMO viscosity and think that is the best oil possible then they would mimic it in their motor oil. Maybe the Mobil scientists and engineers know something that we are missing. Just putting this thought out there!
Any reason to prefer M1 EP 0W20 over TGMO?
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Originally Posted By: deven
Has anyone here for a second thought that maybe just maybe Mobil has a reason for making their 0w20 a little heavier than TGMO 0w20? After all if they are capable of making the TGMO viscosity and think that is the best oil possible then they would mimic it in their motor oil. Maybe the Mobil scientists and engineers know something that we are missing. Just putting this thought out there!
I suspect Toyota specifies the qualities it wants in TGMO, including viscosity, and Mobil makes it to those standards. TGMO is then presumably made to be the optimal compromise for Toyotas and Toyota. Mobil may formulate Mobil1 0w20 to be the best compromise for a much broader audience (Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Ford, etc.) so it winds up with a slightly different add pack and viscosity.
Also, while there's no way of knowing this, it wouldn't be surprising if the agreement between Mobil and Toyota prohibits Mobil from bottling an exact replica of TGMO as a Mobil product and vice-versa.
Has anyone here for a second thought that maybe just maybe Mobil has a reason for making their 0w20 a little heavier than TGMO 0w20? After all if they are capable of making the TGMO viscosity and think that is the best oil possible then they would mimic it in their motor oil. Maybe the Mobil scientists and engineers know something that we are missing. Just putting this thought out there!
I suspect Toyota specifies the qualities it wants in TGMO, including viscosity, and Mobil makes it to those standards. TGMO is then presumably made to be the optimal compromise for Toyotas and Toyota. Mobil may formulate Mobil1 0w20 to be the best compromise for a much broader audience (Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Ford, etc.) so it winds up with a slightly different add pack and viscosity.
Also, while there's no way of knowing this, it wouldn't be surprising if the agreement between Mobil and Toyota prohibits Mobil from bottling an exact replica of TGMO as a Mobil product and vice-versa.
Originally Posted By: tig1
However It's my understanding M1 0-20 AFE has better flow at extreme low temps than TGMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
However It's my understanding M1 0-20 AFE has better flow at extreme low temps than TGMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: tig1
However It's my understanding M1 0-20 AFE has better flow at extreme low temps than TGMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
You didn't understand the reason for my comment.
Originally Posted By: tig1
However It's my understanding M1 0-20 AFE has better flow at extreme low temps than TGMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
You didn't understand the reason for my comment.
Last edited:
+10 Danh
Best post I've seen concerning the probable reasons for the different formulation between M1 0w-20 (AFE or EP) and TGMO.
Toyota hired XOM to formulate an oil to their specifications, which is optimized for use in Toyotas. Now other manufacturer's engines such as Honda certainly thrive on thin oils, whereas others, (Hyundai and Kia immediately come to mind) do not, judging by anecdotal evidence such as noise and relatively poor UOAs.
Mobil 1 errs on the side of caution for its broader base with the 2.7 HTHS even in the AFE formulation.
Gary
Best post I've seen concerning the probable reasons for the different formulation between M1 0w-20 (AFE or EP) and TGMO.
Toyota hired XOM to formulate an oil to their specifications, which is optimized for use in Toyotas. Now other manufacturer's engines such as Honda certainly thrive on thin oils, whereas others, (Hyundai and Kia immediately come to mind) do not, judging by anecdotal evidence such as noise and relatively poor UOAs.
Mobil 1 errs on the side of caution for its broader base with the 2.7 HTHS even in the AFE formulation.
Gary
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
If it ever does get down to -30F, I'll be leaving.
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
If it ever does get down to -30F, I'll be leaving.
I would prefer the M1 for price and availability where I live.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: tig1
However It's my understanding M1 0-20 AFE has better flow at extreme low temps than TGMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
You didn't understand the reason for my comment.
Sorry if I misunderstood yo, but I was commenting on the o.p.'s specific use/needs as far as crazy low temp use/flow goes.
Yes, it is a well known and accepted FACT that the M1 0W-20s WILL flow better than the TGMO will at -40*F (or C) ambient temps, given it vastly superior MRV rating.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: tig1
However It's my understanding M1 0-20 AFE has better flow at extreme low temps than TGMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, but when was the last time it got down to -30* to -40* F in North Carolina, to take advantage of that superior MRV (of the M1 0w-20s)??
You didn't understand the reason for my comment.
Sorry if I misunderstood yo, but I was commenting on the o.p.'s specific use/needs as far as crazy low temp use/flow goes.
Yes, it is a well known and accepted FACT that the M1 0W-20s WILL flow better than the TGMO will at -40*F (or C) ambient temps, given it vastly superior MRV rating.
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
I would prefer the M1 for price and availability where I live.
Me too.
I would prefer the M1 for price and availability where I live.
Me too.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
I would prefer the M1 for price and availability where I live.
Me too.
Apparently TGMO is free for the first two years so my question was premature. I am going to check to make sure that's what they're using.
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
I would prefer the M1 for price and availability where I live.
Me too.
Apparently TGMO is free for the first two years so my question was premature. I am going to check to make sure that's what they're using.
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: deven
Has anyone here for a second thought that maybe just maybe Mobil has a reason for making their 0w20 a little heavier than TGMO 0w20? After all if they are capable of making the TGMO viscosity and think that is the best oil possible then they would mimic it in their motor oil. Maybe the Mobil scientists and engineers know something that we are missing. Just putting this thought out there!
I suspect Toyota specifies the qualities it wants in TGMO, including viscosity, and Mobil makes it to those standards. TGMO is then presumably made to be the optimal compromise for Toyotas and Toyota. Mobil may formulate Mobil1 0w20 to be the best compromise for a much broader audience (Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Ford, etc.) so it winds up with a slightly different add pack and viscosity.
Also, while there's no way of knowing this, it wouldn't be surprising if the agreement between Mobil and Toyota prohibits Mobil from bottling an exact replica of TGMO as a Mobil product and vice-versa.
You're partly right.
Compared to M1 0W-20, TGMO is the new kid on the block.
M1 0W-20 was originally developed long before any OEM started specifying the 0W-20 grade. M1 0W-20 was (is) intended as a cold start improvement for 5W-20 applications. The formulation hasn't changed that much over the 10 plus years since it was first made available.
TGMO 0W-20 was developed by Nippon Oil (ENEOS) and they were the first suppliers of the oil here in North America from 2009-2011. I was told by Toyota that they switched suppliers to XOM as they were able to supply the large quantity of required oil in bulk to all their dealers North America wide and they agreed to formulate the oil to the Nippon Oil developed specifications. In fact the first SM version of TGMO that Mobil made used the exact same AW package that Nippon Oil used imported from Japan.
M1 AFE 0W-20 and TGMO 0W-20 are very different products although they share the same SAE grade. The main difference being the much higher 216 VI of TGMO vs 173 for the heavier M1 0W-20. Additionally TGMO has somewhat higher AW additive levels.
Originally Posted By: deven
Has anyone here for a second thought that maybe just maybe Mobil has a reason for making their 0w20 a little heavier than TGMO 0w20? After all if they are capable of making the TGMO viscosity and think that is the best oil possible then they would mimic it in their motor oil. Maybe the Mobil scientists and engineers know something that we are missing. Just putting this thought out there!
I suspect Toyota specifies the qualities it wants in TGMO, including viscosity, and Mobil makes it to those standards. TGMO is then presumably made to be the optimal compromise for Toyotas and Toyota. Mobil may formulate Mobil1 0w20 to be the best compromise for a much broader audience (Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Ford, etc.) so it winds up with a slightly different add pack and viscosity.
Also, while there's no way of knowing this, it wouldn't be surprising if the agreement between Mobil and Toyota prohibits Mobil from bottling an exact replica of TGMO as a Mobil product and vice-versa.
You're partly right.
Compared to M1 0W-20, TGMO is the new kid on the block.
M1 0W-20 was originally developed long before any OEM started specifying the 0W-20 grade. M1 0W-20 was (is) intended as a cold start improvement for 5W-20 applications. The formulation hasn't changed that much over the 10 plus years since it was first made available.
TGMO 0W-20 was developed by Nippon Oil (ENEOS) and they were the first suppliers of the oil here in North America from 2009-2011. I was told by Toyota that they switched suppliers to XOM as they were able to supply the large quantity of required oil in bulk to all their dealers North America wide and they agreed to formulate the oil to the Nippon Oil developed specifications. In fact the first SM version of TGMO that Mobil made used the exact same AW package that Nippon Oil used imported from Japan.
M1 AFE 0W-20 and TGMO 0W-20 are very different products although they share the same SAE grade. The main difference being the much higher 216 VI of TGMO vs 173 for the heavier M1 0W-20. Additionally TGMO has somewhat higher AW additive levels.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
M1 AFE 0W-20 and TGMO 0W-20 are very different products although they share the same SAE grade. The main difference being the much higher 216 VI of TGMO vs 173 for the heavier M1 0W-20. Additionally TGMO has somewhat higher AW additive levels.
Great thread and excellent timing! I am trying to reconsile what CATERHAM said above with what also posted in this thread.
Quote:
Yes, it is a well known and accepted FACT that the M1 0W-20s WILL flow better than the TGMO will at -40*F (or C) ambient temps, given it vastly superior MRV rating.
I have a Toyota 5.7 V8 that often gets started in -20C weather. The engine is also a bit older (65k miles) so it has likely loosened up a bit, I drive it relatively hard and +/- 1mpg doesn't matter to me. Given these four facts should I be leaning towards M1 0W-20 AFE over TGMO?
M1 AFE 0W-20 and TGMO 0W-20 are very different products although they share the same SAE grade. The main difference being the much higher 216 VI of TGMO vs 173 for the heavier M1 0W-20. Additionally TGMO has somewhat higher AW additive levels.
Great thread and excellent timing! I am trying to reconsile what CATERHAM said above with what also posted in this thread.
Quote:
Yes, it is a well known and accepted FACT that the M1 0W-20s WILL flow better than the TGMO will at -40*F (or C) ambient temps, given it vastly superior MRV rating.
I have a Toyota 5.7 V8 that often gets started in -20C weather. The engine is also a bit older (65k miles) so it has likely loosened up a bit, I drive it relatively hard and +/- 1mpg doesn't matter to me. Given these four facts should I be leaning towards M1 0W-20 AFE over TGMO?
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
M1 AFE 0W-20 and TGMO 0W-20 are very different products although they share the same SAE grade. The main difference being the much higher 216 VI of TGMO vs 173 for the heavier M1 0W-20. Additionally TGMO has somewhat higher AW additive levels.
Great thread and excellent timing! I am trying to reconsile what CATERHAM said above with what also posted in this thread.
Quote:
Yes, it is a well known and accepted FACT that the M1 0W-20s WILL flow better than the TGMO will at -40*F (or C) ambient temps, given it vastly superior MRV rating.
I have a Toyota 5.7 V8 that often gets started in -20C weather. The engine is also a bit older (65k miles) so it has likely loosened up a bit, I drive it relatively hard and +/- 1mpg doesn't matter to me. Given these four facts should I be leaning towards M1 0W-20 AFE over TGMO?
With that information in mind I'd lean toward Mobil 1 AFE.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
M1 AFE 0W-20 and TGMO 0W-20 are very different products although they share the same SAE grade. The main difference being the much higher 216 VI of TGMO vs 173 for the heavier M1 0W-20. Additionally TGMO has somewhat higher AW additive levels.
Great thread and excellent timing! I am trying to reconsile what CATERHAM said above with what also posted in this thread.
Quote:
Yes, it is a well known and accepted FACT that the M1 0W-20s WILL flow better than the TGMO will at -40*F (or C) ambient temps, given it vastly superior MRV rating.
I have a Toyota 5.7 V8 that often gets started in -20C weather. The engine is also a bit older (65k miles) so it has likely loosened up a bit, I drive it relatively hard and +/- 1mpg doesn't matter to me. Given these four facts should I be leaning towards M1 0W-20 AFE over TGMO?
With that information in mind I'd lean toward Mobil 1 AFE.
Originally Posted By: Capa
Both oils are excellent and I have tried both but TGMO will flow better than M1 at all temps north of around -30 F. Realistically, who here drives in temps that low???
Every single Canadian prairie dweller,those from the mid western border states,and Alaskans.
So "realistically" many people do. Just because its cold doesn't mean we get days off.
I'm truly amazed sometimes.
Both oils are excellent and I have tried both but TGMO will flow better than M1 at all temps north of around -30 F. Realistically, who here drives in temps that low???
Every single Canadian prairie dweller,those from the mid western border states,and Alaskans.
So "realistically" many people do. Just because its cold doesn't mean we get days off.
I'm truly amazed sometimes.
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
I have a Toyota 5.7 V8 that often gets started in -20C weather. The engine is also a bit older (65k miles) so it has likely loosened up a bit, I drive it relatively hard and +/- 1mpg doesn't matter to me. Given these four facts should I be leaning towards M1 0W-20 AFE over TGMO?
With respect to weather, I wouldn't worry terribly much. Both are 0w-XX grades and well up to the task.
I have a Toyota 5.7 V8 that often gets started in -20C weather. The engine is also a bit older (65k miles) so it has likely loosened up a bit, I drive it relatively hard and +/- 1mpg doesn't matter to me. Given these four facts should I be leaning towards M1 0W-20 AFE over TGMO?
With respect to weather, I wouldn't worry terribly much. Both are 0w-XX grades and well up to the task.
Problem is that the pour point is on an MSDS, which isn't a PDS, and certainly isn't a technical specification...it's indicative only, and if firefighters are attending a blaze with burning TGMO, then it's pour point has little relevency...repeat...AN MSDS IS NOT A PDS, NOR A TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION.
What I find (more than mildly amusing) is that the VI which is calculated off the MSDS is considered gospel, while the pour point is "obviously a typo".
Given the errors associated with viscometric testing, and the "fact" that the VI is calculated from a document that contains glaring typographical errors....you get my drift.
What I find (more than mildly amusing) is that the VI which is calculated off the MSDS is considered gospel, while the pour point is "obviously a typo".
Given the errors associated with viscometric testing, and the "fact" that the VI is calculated from a document that contains glaring typographical errors....you get my drift.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
M1 0W-20 was originally developed long before any OEM started specifying the 0W-20 grade. M1 0W-20 was (is) intended as a cold start improvement for 5W-20 applications. The formulation hasn't changed that much over the 10 plus years since it was first made available.
Is this true? Honda was specifying their 0w-20 for the first generation Honda Insight in late 1999.
-Bryan
M1 0W-20 was originally developed long before any OEM started specifying the 0W-20 grade. M1 0W-20 was (is) intended as a cold start improvement for 5W-20 applications. The formulation hasn't changed that much over the 10 plus years since it was first made available.
Is this true? Honda was specifying their 0w-20 for the first generation Honda Insight in late 1999.
-Bryan
Bryan was the 0W-20 grade spec'd or back-spec'd for the original Insight? I know Honda was using a 0W-20 and even a lighter "Green" so-called 0W-10 in Japan going back many years but IIRC Honda dealers in North America didn't start getting a Honda 0W-20 until as late as 2008 for certain models. I suppose
Of course M1 0W-20 didn't hit the market until (again from memory) 2002 or so. The limited production Insight wasn't the target market but all the models from Ford, Toyota, Honda etc that were spec'd for the 5W-20 grade. As it turned out the market wasn't ready for a 0W-XX grade, didn't understand it and didn't believe it could be used when 5W-XX was specified. As a result XOM withdrew both their 0W-20 and 0w30 grades in 2005 only to be reintroduced years later unchanged but with a new "Advanced Fuel Economy" marketing scheme. By that time Honda and Toyota had started specifying their own 0W-20 for a couple of models.
Of course M1 0W-20 didn't hit the market until (again from memory) 2002 or so. The limited production Insight wasn't the target market but all the models from Ford, Toyota, Honda etc that were spec'd for the 5W-20 grade. As it turned out the market wasn't ready for a 0W-XX grade, didn't understand it and didn't believe it could be used when 5W-XX was specified. As a result XOM withdrew both their 0W-20 and 0w30 grades in 2005 only to be reintroduced years later unchanged but with a new "Advanced Fuel Economy" marketing scheme. By that time Honda and Toyota had started specifying their own 0W-20 for a couple of models.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Bryan was the 0W-20 grade spec'd or back-spec'd for the original Insight?
0w-20 was spec'd for the original Insight. In fact, I have a flier from Honda that came with my 2000 Insight when it was purchased new, explaining the new 0w-20 oil grade and why I needed to use it. I'll see if I can get it scanned and uploaded here.
-Bryan
Bryan was the 0W-20 grade spec'd or back-spec'd for the original Insight?
0w-20 was spec'd for the original Insight. In fact, I have a flier from Honda that came with my 2000 Insight when it was purchased new, explaining the new 0w-20 oil grade and why I needed to use it. I'll see if I can get it scanned and uploaded here.
-Bryan
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