Any oil & filter combination to STOP wear?

[Triton_330]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Duty cycle matters as well. A Ford mod in grandma's Grand Marquis might be done after less than 150K but the same engine in a cab might triple that.

Even if grandma's duty cycle was 100% short trips, I doubt that a Ford modular would be done at 150k. Well, unless she or whoever took care of her car neglected it and used conventional oil and a jobber filter for 15k or more each OCI.

~ Triton

 

[fdcg27]

The mod is a good engine but it has its problems, just like any other. The timing chain and tensioners are a good example of where problems can occur, as are the launched plugs on some engines.
I write the above as one who has the administration of a smallish fleet as a part of my job that has included some Ford mods that have required timing chain replacement as well as new valve guide seals.
No special rap on the Ford mod, but even generally good engines have their issues and few engines live long lives in short trip start and stop service.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Any oil and filter changed on any reasonable interval will bring wear to an irreducible minimum.


This is absolutely not true. If it were, why would anyone care about how efficient their oil filters are? Why would filter manufacturers feel any need or obligation to publish efficiency ratings? And why would BITOGers obsess over the difference between 95% vs 98.7%? I have no desire to start a flame war, but there is some bloviating going on in this thread by more than one poster; and there is also some excellent advice. Reader discern. I would think that most any BITOGer who has been here very long (and I won't define very long), has read David Newton's article "How to decide what is normal" http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/

It is pointed out within this article and many other places on the internet (I'm not going to research it, I already have); one of the accepted rules of thumb in Used Oil Analysis for ANY engine is that you can take the IRON ppm and divide it by the miles on the oil in thousands and determine a "wear rate" for the engine. For example, my last UOA with 12K on my oil had 15 ppm iron. So 15/12=1.25 for a wear rate. Is this for the oil or engine? That is a separate debate, and I'm not trying to go there, all I'm trying to define is that there IS A DIFFERENCE in the amount of abrasive debris circulating in your engine using different oils and filters; and your oil and filter choice definitely have consequences.

I challenge anyone to take this formula and apply it to any UOA with any filter and oil of your choice and disprove it. IF you can, I'm quite sure that Ryan Stark of Blackstone labs and David Newton (dnewton3) on this forum would be interested in talking to you. You can also see what YOUR choice of oil and filter are doing (or not doing).

Right now, personally, I believe the bypass filter that I am running is among the most efficient available:





And if anyone thinks this doesn't apply to you because you just change it every 3 or 5 or 10K, look at Shannow's post here on p2 to see how dirty "new" oil is: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3533589/2

My last particle count was 14/13/11, and my baseline VOA was 17/16/13, so for right now, the almost 16K oil in my car is 8 times cleaner than what I poured out of the bottle as "new." Put that in your BMW and run with it. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that the cleaner the oil is, generally, the better, until you get ridiculous. Caterpillar recommends new oil to be 16/13 before adding to an engine, and there isn't an oil on the market that meets that specification. See p2 here: https://www.hyprofiltration.com/clientuploads/directory/CaseStudies/PDFs/CAT 5 Star.pdf

I would say to the OP; I doubt any of us would hesitate to take a beating to save our kids from the same, but you have GOT to maintain your oil level and top it off accordingly, or you're going to end up walking. NO FILTER IN THE WORLD can substitute for an empty sump. Duh? I believe I have one of the best filters available, but I check my oil level frequently. I empathize with you as a parent.

 

[crazyoildude]

PHM works well also.. I used Maxlife because they did not Have any PHM at wal mart in the 5w30 ...
Also i like the Valvoline because they have the double leak proof seal inner seal.
I wish Pennzoil would seal their jugs better i know in one wal mart they only put a couple of them on the shelf at a time because they don't want to clean up spilled oil.
I heard that from a manager and also someone that stocks shelves..

 

[xtell]

ihatetochangeoil - what is your change interval for the NTZ AL-09 filter element? I was thinking of trying one of those on one of my plow trucks.

 

[fdcg27]

From the article:

"Only with micro-analysis, using long, well-detailed controlled studies, can we make specific determinations as to what might be “better” or “best” for an application."

"Ryan Stark of Blackstone will tell us that the greatest variable that affects wear is usage factor; the data here may well support that conclusion in some circumstances."

Dave also provides an example of two Duramax diesels operated under similar conditions of load, one using a syn HDEO and bypass filtration with the other on a conventional HDEO and only the factory full flow filter.
Want to guess which engine didn't show lower wear metals in its UOAs?

IOW, you're quoting a source but you've misinterpreted what that source actually wrote.
Would that qualify as bloviating?

 

[FCD]

No matter what you do, the engine will eventually wear out and start burning oil, it's a fact of life like you i and everyone is going to die

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: kohnen
Originally Posted By: maximus
...Engine wear is the least of my concerns. I'm more worried about tires, brakes and suspension components. At some point these cost more than the car is worth, then we get rid of the vehicle and start over

Yes, but, I have an ulterior motive. If by selecting the right oil and filter I can make it so that the engine won't ever burn oil, then my kids (who have trouble checking oil) won't end up destroying their engine.


I run my engines up to 200-350K and none of them have ever increased in oil consumption. Both of my Ford engines still use virtually no oil between my normal 10K OCI.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

I would have to research on their website, which you can do. I called and spoke to their tech dept. because my sump is automotive and I'm only using 50% filter capacity...They told me I could go 30K (double interval) because my sump is 1/2 size of what the filter is designed for.

Looked it up: http://www.ntzfilter.com/pdf/ALOperating.pdf The AL-09 is rated for an 8 liter sump. Under those crcumstances, the manufacturer's change interval is 15K; but since my sump is half size, they told me I could double the interval. Of course, I'm monitoring the situation with oil analysis. I do NOT intend to constantly do 4K oil tests; I just need to establish a baseline, and I guess when I get the centrifuge on...and my second bypass...I will be in uncharted waters, where I'm quite sure no BITOGer has gone before...If you have the physical clearances, there is no reason I know of that you couldn't mount an oversize filter (whatever oversize is for your sump) and do the same for extended OCI on a larger scale...http://www.ntzfilter.com/sect1a.asp

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

Sir,

My only reason for referencing Ryan stark and David Newton was to substantiate my claim of using Iron ppm/Mileage on oil = wear rate.

Mr. Newton has admitted that he has never actually held a bypass filter in his hand; and he and I have discussed bypass filtration at length...Do you notice that in the example you and Mr. Newton reference, neither the brand name nor the efficiency rating of the "bypass filter" being used are stated? Therefore, it is quite useless information. We philosophically disagree. If you would care to read this thread, some things are illustrated; it is a lengthy read: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4089949/Re:_how_much_longer_will_engin#Post4089949

I dismiss his opinion, and yours, unless you can post hard data and source it.

I am personally of the opinion that not only can bypass filtration (with the proper filters), combined with a centrifuge lead to a cleaner sump than can be obtained using any other known method, furthermore, I believe this technology can possibly eliminate oil changes altogether. And I am of the opinion that a clinically clean oil sump will extend engine life. You may dismiss me as a crackpot, but if you'd indulge me, read here: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29426/purifying-engine-oil

"The best method of purification would be to use a combination of both purifiers and bypass filtration, since each has its limitations. Centrifugal purifiers are good at removing larger particles and water but not for removing the smaller organo-metallic particles, which a filter will remove. If you already have purifiers, keep them and add bypass filtration."

I trust you have seen the picture of my NTZ bypass filter. Here is a picture of the centrifuge I will be adding: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4044692/Re:_centrifuge#Post4044692

Additionally, I'm going to run a second bypass filter that has 5 US patents. One of their patents is for timed release additives to replenish the TBN in your oil: https://www.puradyn.com/filter-elements/

Here is a picture of my Puradyn that was mounted on a car I previously owned:

I would think that fleet managers and people who are responsible for corporate (or state) budgets (you?) would have a keen interest in the science experiment that will be taking place under my hood. I have invented nothing, just following the advice of those more knowledgeable than I. I travel quite a bit and I'm still fabricating, so I have no results or UOA to post yet. But what if I eliminate the need for oil changes altogether? And you say the oil or filter makes no difference?

In the real world of bypass filtration being effectively used, here is a trucking company that has taken a fleet of ONE HUNDRED TRUCKS a million miles EACH, without so much as an oil change; so here's a discussion about reality:
http://www.marketwired.com/press-release...ange-793914.htm

Try telling these guys that their filters make no difference.

 

[SilverC6]

I would think frequent oil changes using a quality synthetic oil filter would approximate the outcome of extended changes and bypass filtration in automotive applications.

With the filter focused on larger contaminants and frequent changes purging smaller suspended wear components below the filter's physical limits, you can get very close.

The use of bypass filtration in over the road applications is driven by the cost of the multi-gallon oil changes in those vehicles.

So for the driver of lesser vehicles, it becomes an economic decision between installing an expensive bypass filter system and 3,000 or 5,000 mile changes.

I know the trend with auto manufacturers and here on BITOG is longer and longer OCI's with premium synthetic filters and EP oil.

Taken to its end, more efficient filtration and even bypass filtration seems to be in our future.

However, old school 3,000 mile OCI's coupled with the high quality machining in today's automotive engines might yield the same result.

 

[kohnen]

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil

I would say to the OP; I doubt any of us would hesitate to take a beating to save our kids from the same, but you have GOT to maintain your oil level and top it off accordingly, or you're going to end up walking. NO FILTER IN THE WORLD can substitute for an empty sump. Duh? I believe I have one of the best filters available, but I check my oil level frequently. I empathize with you as a parent.

Oh, trust me! My discussion with my kid about checking the oil level frequently was one of those "I am willing to die on this hill" discussions. Back and forth "I'm too busy." (Bummer, the car doesn't care.) "Won't the light warn me?" (Nope. That light means the engine is being damaged. You need to take care of it far before that.) "You don't love me..." (I sure do. Your car, on the other hand, doesn't). Blah, Blah, Blah.

But, it got me thinking - if there's NO metal to metal contact, is there any wear? And, if we get the particle size down to really really small, can we prevent all contact? Judging from everyone's comments, apparently not.

 

[fdcg27]

You're making an apples and oranges comparison.
OTR diesel engines cost more than any one of your vehicles did new and a single oil change will cost more than all of the 5-10K drains combined that I'll do through the life of any of my cars.
OTR trucks as a whole are built to do a million miles.
Passenger cars and light trucks are not.
OTR trucks are also working vehicles and they make no money while sitting in a shop for any sort of maintenance, so steps that allow safely reducing maintenance downtime make sense.
To me, it makes little sense to spend a lot of money on bypass or centrifugal oil filtration for an engine with a design life of 150K, a practical life of 200K and an extreme life of maybe 250K. The vehicle it's installed in has the same constraints on its life, so even if you can greatly extend the life of the engine while also eliminating ten or twenty buck oil changes, you probably aren't doing anything economically feasible.
You give your location as Midwestern.
Rust will kill your vehicles long before their engines die.

 

[tojo1968]

Originally Posted By: kohnen
Gents,

As engines get older, they start to consume oil. I think this is typically because of piston, piston ring, and cylinder wear.

If so, is there an oil & filter combination that would prevent this wear and keep an engine from burning oil?

I believe that the whole point of motor oil is to prevent ALL metal to metal contact. So, if I use a bypass filter too (I'm thinking a Microgreen filter) that filters down to a few microns, there should be almost no wear.

Am I missing anything in my thinking?

(Sorry, I didn't know if this belongs in an oil thread or a filter thread.)

Here is a good read for you
1 million mile cars
You can Google any of them and see what they did to achieve that mileage.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

I think you're missing the point sir; but I've at least got your gears engaged. Money isn't my point right now. I admit that with purchase of two bypass filters and a centrifuge, I'm quite sure I've spent more money than 150K worth of 10K oil changes; but I've also told the world of BTOG that one of these filters is FROM A PREVIOUS CAR. These filters can go from vehicle to vehicle as ownership changes.

Long term convenience is a factor, but there are many more factors...Like using less oil and achieving better usage of our natural resources...The Puradyn filter, to the best of my knowledge, is the only filter in the world certified as "Pollution Prevention Technology" by the California Environmental Protection Agency. http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20...partment-Energy

If oil changes can be eliminated altogether, or at least made as common as transmission rebuilds, then one can spend more time in the driver's seat and less on your back under the car, or standing in line paying someone else to crawl under your car.

Do you think there is a market for a vehicle that could be advertised from the OEM as going 100K or greater (or lifetime) without having to change oil? And why can't cars go a million miles with proper maintenance? Because we as a society have decided we've got to replace them every 7-10 years?

C'mon outside that box. And I would've considered your point about rust as being very legitimate, but it isn't 1970 anymore. I admit I know next to nothing about the science of corrosion resistance, but you state you're in Ohio...Just drive down any street USA. Most cars don't rust anymore; at least not like they used to. Great strides have been taken.

 

[fdcg27]

Well, our high use rides have done about 15K a year, since even when the family fleet was doing 60K a year, we spread that over a number of different rides.
Rust never sleeps in those areas that have real winter.
On the North Coast (Cleveland) you can see just how much more rust the more severe winter causes than what we see here in the Ohio River valley and rust is an issue even here.
I just can't see the economic case for high filtering efficiency in a passenger vehicle.
I can do an oil change in no time at all for very little money.
You should also bear in mind that very efficient filtration alone cannot extend oil life indefinitely. Other factors are involved in oil life, as you already know.
I'm also way to lazy these days to go to the trouble of plumbing all this stuff into anything we own.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You're making an apples and oranges comparison.
OTR diesel engines cost more than any one of your vehicles did new and a single oil change will cost more than all of the 5-10K drains combined that I'll do through the life of any of my cars.
OTR trucks as a whole are built to do a million miles.
Passenger cars and light trucks are not.
OTR trucks are also working vehicles and they make no money while sitting in a shop for any sort of maintenance, so steps that allow safely reducing maintenance downtime make sense.
To me, it makes little sense to spend a lot of money on bypass or centrifugal oil filtration for an engine with a design life of 150K, a practical life of 200K and an extreme life of maybe 250K. The vehicle it's installed in has the same constraints on its life, so even if you can greatly extend the life of the engine while also eliminating ten or twenty buck oil changes, you probably aren't doing anything economically feasible.
You give your location as Midwestern.
Rust will kill your vehicles long before their engines die.


There isn't a modern engine sold in the US with such a short design life, and there haven't been in many many years. Outside of bonafide factory defects, engines fail due to poor maintenance or human error.

 

[tojo1968]

Quote:
I think you're missing the point sir

Which person are you replying to?

 

[Lubener]

Impossible. Too many other things to factor in. Driving conditions, maint schedules, habits etc.Those items have more to do than just the oil/ filter brand.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Rust will kill your vehicles long before their engines die.

That is the real issue. One certainly can accomplish something with a bunch of bypass filtration and so forth in a passenger vehicle. Whether or not it's a good idea for one to do so is another matter altogether.