Another Rotella T in a Honda VTX @ 70,000

[poisoned]

Here is the latest sample from my Honda VTX. 1300 cc v-twin, water cooled. Oil is shared in the engine / transmission. Looks like the viscosity is just below grade, and the flash point is lower than it should be (gasoline dilution maybe??)
Blackstone recommended checking back at 5500.....but I don't know. Oil has been changed already.








Brand /Rotella T /Rotella T /Amsoil AMF
Miles on oil /4977 /4100 /5950
Miles on Unit /70502 /59550 /34150
Sample Date /7/27/2007 /10/24/2006 /8/7/2005

Aluminum /3 /4 /3
Chromium /0 /0 /1
Iron /18 /15 /37
Copper /5 /8 /10
Lead /1 /0 /1
Tin /0 /0 /0
Moly /1 /1 /2
Nickel /1 /0 /1
Manganese /0 /0 /0
Silver /0 /0 /0
Titanium /0 /0 /0
Potassium /1 /1 /0
Boron /1 /0 /1
Silicon /15 /15 /12
Sodium /7 /9 /4
Calcium /3703 /2969 /3632
Magnesium /11 /11 /14
Phosphorus /1238 /1095 /1053
Zinc /1562 /1281 /1299
Barium /0 /1 /0
SUS @ 210º /64.9 /65.9 /67
Flashpoint /350 /365 /380
Fuel /1.3 /0.5 / Antifreeze /0 /0 /0
Water /0 /0 /0
Insolubles /0.3 /0.2 /0.3
TBN /9.7 /8.4 /8.6

 

[Mannix]

Is Rotella T the 5w-40 synthetic or the 15w40 dino?

 

[poisoned]

Sorry, it is the Synthetic 5-40, I can't edit my post.

I should add that:
the 2 changes before the Amsoil were Amsoil

The change before the 1st RTS was Amsoil

The 2 changes before this last RTS were RTS

Bike was in a wreck just before the 59,550 test (so that would be wrecked at 55,450). I was looking for damage but was very surprised at how well the oil held up. Bike had sat for several months with the old oil in it. I wanted to get a fresh test without the odd circumstances.

Current fill is the new Amsoil MCF, I plan on running this to 5K, fill, run another 5K and test it then. I already had a case, otherwise, I probably wouldn't bother. Unless it is better than the Shell, I probably wont be purchasing it again.

 

[TucsonDon]

Does anyone know if:

"Iron /18 /15 /37"

On a bike with 70K miles is typical or out of range? I honestly don't know.

 

[Jaybird]

I know that 18ppm and 15ppm are much less than 37ppm.

And the 18ppm reading was after twice the miles the engine had on it when the Amway netted 37ppm.

 

[TucsonDon]

Quote:

---

I know that 18ppm and 15ppm are much less than 37ppm.

And the 18ppm reading was after twice the miles the engine had on it when the Amway netted 37ppm.

---

I'm not sure I fully get the gist of what you're saying here. Clearly 18 and 15 are less than 37. But is "15" a low, average or high number for iron? I think it's high ... I think based on other UOA's that iron numbers like that are typically associated with newer bikes, not bikes with 70K miles on them. But maybe I'm wrong ... maybe there's a reasonable explanation for numbers like this are no cause for concern.

And 15/18 being after twice as many miles when "Amsoil yielded 37" ... not sure what that's supposed to mean, other than the obvious. Are you suggesting that 15/18 is what one would expect as a bike gets older? Or are you saying that Amsoil was contributing to the higher iron numbers earlier?

 

[tmus2122]

Okay, Mother Honda requires oil with no moly, yet their Honda GN4 shows a 53 for moly and rottela T 5w40 shows 1. What a great oil for motorcycles.

 

[TucsonDon]

Quote:

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Okay, Mother Honda requires oil with no moly, yet their Honda GN4 shows a 53 for moly and rottela T 5w40 shows 1. What a great oil for motorcycles.

---

From what I have heard, *some* moly is not a problem. Word is up to 200ppm is okay, provided the clutch is in good working order. Chevron Delo HDEO has about 200ppm of moly, and lots of people are running with that.

I've always viewed GN4 and "just okay" oil. I'm not sure why I'd go with that when there are better options out there.

 

[Jaybird]

Don,
With 34K miles on the bike, it was hardly a break-in when the Amsoil was used, and it netted more than twice the iron than either of the similar runs with Rotella.

And I would think ~15ppm to be a normal yeild of iron for such a run.

I think it was Rotax that did a study a few years ago concerning moly and engine oils in a wet clutch set-up.
From what I remember, MoDTC used in engine oils up to ~700ppm showed no detriment in clutch action until the fluid was sheared way down from it's original viscosity.
(maybe a fluid that has zero moly would also do the same thing when sheared way down..or quite possibly make it "grabbier", which hardly ever gets complained about)
Btw...Redline oils have 500-700ppm MoDTC, and folks have very good luck with their products in wet clutch bikes.

I think that if we investigate, we will find that the recommendations from bike mfgs have a bit to be desired.
I know some feel that these bike mfgs have a staff of folks sitting around and deciding on just what the very best oil to use is...but that is simply not the case.
Their recommendations are often times more boiler plate than anything. CYA takes great president over most everything else as well.

 

[fuel tanker man]

I think the excess iron with the Amsoil seems almost typical of full synthetic oil's inability to inhibit corrosion (rust) as well as a petroleum oil.

Other than that, the Amsoil did fine, but even in other areas, the group III (Rotella syn 5-40, right) oil did better.

Dan

 

[Jaymus]

I would actually like to see some Rotella-T 15w40 ran in that bike... but probably not for 5,000 miles.

 

[Mackelroy]

Btw...Redline oils have 500-700ppm MoDTC, and folks have very good luck with their products in wet clutch bikes,,

Put it in your vfr and run a few changes for 10 or 15,000 mile.

Redline is a ver slippery oil, it borders being too slippery , as we've discussed before not all have had long term success with redline and a wet clutches.

The good news their new MC distingtly says MB rated fluid, where just about any wet clutch bike requires MA ( a higher friction oil).

I'll not run it in a wet clutch bike and would not try to sell anyone to do so.

Harley or dry clutch models redline would never be a potential issue.

 

[Jaybird]

I have heard lots more anecdotes of folks haveing great success with Redline oils in wet clutch engines, than those who have problems. In fact, the problem stories with these oils are few and far between.

I also hear anecdotes of folks having the very same clutch issues using all types of oils, including those that are supposedly formulated for wet clutch engines.
I have seen in person many of these folks who claim clutch failures, and almost Always they blame the fluid right off the bat.
But when futher investigated, there will be a mechanical issue that is not related to the fluid or how it performs.
(sacked out springs, glazed/warped plates, etc...)

MA and MB ratings are more hogwash than not. Oh yeah, I suppose one can rear back and come to all sorts of conclusions about MA and MB, but the fact is that it is a meager test. And if only one reading in one of the three tests comes back with just .01 over the limit, then the fluid must be rated MB...even though the other two tests netted a number well within the MA range.
The test is just not what folks are making out to be.
And most make it out as a "high friction" "low friction" comparison...which it surely is not.

I have also heard lots of anecdotes of folks who used MB rated fluids and have zero issues.
One in particular is an aquaintence of mine that runs the parts house of a very large bike dealer. He used MB rated Honda oil for a year before he realized he was using the wrong fluid. It amazed him that there were no clutch feel issues at all. He switched back to the MA rated fluid and could tell absolutely no difference whatsoever.

He admitted that he was more amazed because of all the stories folks tell, based on their assumptions, had him thinking that if the wrong oil was ever used, he would have loads of troubles.
It simply isn't so.
JASO certification...or claiming it, is more fodder for marketeers than valuable info for the rider.

 

[Mackelroy]

I've ran many types of oil without clutch issue, but I would not consider MA verses MB rating HOgwash. The rating is a gate, and on the more friction side there is less potential slipping via the wet clutch, thats why the gate exists.

The issues I had with Redline wasnt until after a couple changes and 5 or 6,000 miles the oil was unrated at that time, obviously I didnt care, But I was hesitant till a few said they hadnt had any issue. Of course that doesnt mean some may be able to go longer without issue, but I've seen nothing on this board that gurantees redline 100% long time excellent clutch performance, only 1 or 2 who havent had issue with the short time they've run it.

I can only say the redline seems to run really well till it didnt, and then I began to have mild slippage issues. Changing back to known good clutch performing oil eliminated the issue.

I've would not run it again in my wet clutch bikes. I welcome you to run a long term test in your bike. I'm certainly sure if you were to experience mild slipping we'd be more on the same page.

 

[rokky]

I get tired of the moly, energy conserving, and clutch slipping debates. There is a wide variety of opinion with NO definitive or conclusive results.
Simply put: You have people saying your clutch will never slip regardless of what oil, unless there is a mechanical fault - You have people saying stick with Jaso Ma rated or oils without friction modifiers to avoid trouble.

It all comes down to this:

1.Should I believe what I read in an internet forum by people with unkown/unproven credentials? How do I know what kind of testing they have done? "A friend of a friend didn't have a problem" doesn't do it for me.

2.Should I go with manufacturers' recommendations and the various institutes whose job is to apply standards, test, and rate oil?

Gee ... I think I'll go with number 2.

 

[TucsonDon]

Quote:

---

It all comes down to this:

1.Should I believe what I read in an internet forum by people with unkown/unproven credentials? How do I know what kind of testing they have done? "A friend of a friend didn't have a problem" doesn't do it for me.

2.Should I go with manufacturers' recommendations and the various institutes whose job is to apply standards, test, and rate oil?

Gee ... I think I'll go with number 2.

---

That's one way to look at it.

I was reading the Goldwing's owner's manual the other day and I was struck by how seemingly ambiguous the recommendation is on the oil. They say a 10w30 is recommended, then offer a rather crude temperature chart that shows 10W-40 at higher temperatures. One sentence essentially says that any oil that meets API SJ is fine. It mentions JASO MA, but it's unclear if it's saying API SJ and JASO MA, or SJ or JASO MA. Honestly, it's very unclear.

I don't doubt Honda spends time and money figuring out the proper oil. But what I suspect is that deep within the bowels of Honda they're not really all that concerned which oil you use, provided it's not "Energy Conserving."

Sometimes I think "JASO MA" is just easier to explain than telling people to look for the circle and make sure "Energy Conserving" is not there. So in some ways the JASO MA requirement may well be just something they adopted because they grew tired of trying to explain the other.

 

[Drew2000]

Has anyone ever heard of a modern, liquid-cooled Japanease motorcycle engine ever "wearing out" from the type of oil used?

Most asian bikes get abandoned in the yard or wrecked long before they will ever "wear out"

Many bikes with 200,000 miles or more are using run of the mill dino engine oil and are still going strong.

Ride more, worry less.

Drew