Another Hamas ******* Gets His...

[VeeDubb]

Some very good points made by Gary, Mystic and RJ and a few others.

Regarding the "legality" of it all, I would just like to know what "international law" exists to define what is legal and what is not. I know the word legality gets tossed around a lot, but any law is not worth the paper it is written on if there is no enforcement. As much as people would like to pay lip service to international law, such a law effectivelly does not exist in places like the Middle East.

What incentive does Israel have to abide by "international law" or participate in the U.N. when the Arab nations who's collective votes greatly outnumer Israel's, will simply collude to out vote them? Plus we know that the U.N. will never lift a finger to protect Israel from any Arab threat anyways, just like they never lift a finger to protect anyone. Just ask the Rowandans. The UN sits around talking about "international law" but won't take action.

If Israel decides to play by the rules of the U.N., it doesn't make them noble, it makes them naive. When you are surrounded by neighbors that want to eliminate you, you don't ask questions, you just fire away. And anybody who claims they wouldn't do the same thing in the same situation is either lying or has no backbone.

Until the U.N. gets its act together and until the world agrees on a credible set of rules that it has the nads to enforce, Israel will continue to defend herself unilaterally and I don't blame her.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Met a Airforce SGT, US intelligence gone from this country for 10 years and just got stationed at Pearl Harbor. He just got back from Beirut and Israel and said some of most humble and nicest people he has ever met were the Palestinians. I don't know why the Americans dislike the Palestinians. Hamas and Arafat are not the majority of what the Palestinians reflect and Israel **** well knows the terror they bring to their own people and the people of Israel. Like I said, the method of what Israel is taking may not be of what the International Law judges, but they **** well Know what the are DOING!!!!

 

[sprintman]

Yeah like shooting a British journalist in the head while holding a white flag or crushing an American female protester with a bulldozer. I wonder if that gets reported in the U.S?

 

[javacontour]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
Yeah like shooting a British journalist in the head while holding a white flag or crushing an American female protester with a bulldozer. I wonder if that gets reported in the U.S?

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The female protestor has made the news here. Her parents seem to be trying to protest CAT...

Thank goodness for google heaven:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:kCOyojtalo4J:www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-israel05.html+Parents+of+woman+killed+by+Israeli+bulldozer+join+anti-Caterpillar+rally&hl=en& ie=UTF-8

TB

[ April 19, 2004, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: javacontour ]

 

[Mystic]

Yes, Israel has not been perfect either. Although if we lived in Israel and we were Israelis living in a small country surrounded by enemies that want to kill you, the seize mentality of the Israelis might be easier for us to understand.

Before Israel actually came into existence there were Jews who engaged in terrorism. Since Israel has come into existence there have been several wars and conflicts. Some of the land that Israel has taken over they can't give up very easily, such as the Golan Heights (not sure if I spelled that correctly), which Israel has to keep for military security. Other areas that Israel has annexed now has high rise buildings, etc., and Israel is not going to give up those areas. But there are also illegal Israeli settlements on Arab land.

I don't think there is any solution to these problems. These people hate each other and will just keep on fighting each other. The Jews did originally come from the Middle East and I can understand them wanting to have their own country in the land where they came from (especially after what happened in World War II to the Jews). But they had not been in that land for a long time. And the USA, by the way, did not originally support the state of Israel. In fact, Russia supported Israel when the state first came into existence.

There is no way that I can accept the murder of innocent people in buses, restaurants, cafes, etc. As a human being, I cannot accept these acts. No cause is worth this sort of brutality. People try to say that Israeli killing of Hamas leaders is the same thing, but there is a difference-Hamas leaders have been responsible for launching suicide attacks on Israel and have stated that they will destroy Israel. Israel has to have the right to self defense, just like we have the right to self defense.

And in my opinion, the use of terrorism ultimately destroys the terrorist and the cause of the terrorist. True, people in the Middle East have a different value system then people in the West. But even in the Quran, the current acts of Moslem terrorists is not accepted. Ultimately, terrorist acts destroy any support for the terrorists that might exist in the Western world. The Moslems would look much more heroic to me if they were attacking Israeli soldiers and if they were appealing to the world to understand and support their cause. I don't feel much like supporting people who blow up innocent people on a bus-how about you?

I personally would be willing to accept all 6 million of the Jews into the USA if that would solve the problem and stop a world war. Things are getting very dangerous in the Middle East. It is probably only a matter of time before we see chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons used. Do we really want a nuclear war to start perhaps ending human civilization over all of this nonsense? What would God, Allah, Jehovah think?

If anybody has any idea how to end all of this nonsense in a civilized manner please speak up. Somehow we must stop all of this insanity.

 

[sprintman]

From memory she was hanging over the top of the blade and dressed in a bright orange jumpsuit or similar. Even a blind man couldn't have missed her. Now during lunch break I just heard a top U.S state dept official reporting that Bush has a dilemma re the Hamas leader assassination. While the rest of the world has condemned it as potentially increasing terrorism Bush can't speak out as it will upset the American Jewish lobby but he also can't stand to be made a fool off as Sharon has just done. This may turn out to be not one of the smartest moves made by Israel.

 

[Gary Allan]

javacontour
Member
Member # 1740

I'll never forgive you for posting that Loooooooooooong link

I hate lateral scrolling

Israeli bulldozers are like tanks ..the driver is in a sniper resistant bunker, so to speak. The girl was supposed to move out of the way at the last second ...she didn't ..the dozer operator didn't see her due to his obstructed view. That is the account that I read, anyway.

Sad story.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
Yeah like shooting a British journalist in the head while holding a white flag or crushing an American female protester with a bulldozer. I wonder if that gets reported in the U.S?

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Sprintman, Not very familiar with the case of the British journalist, but I strongly doubt that the IDF intentionally shot him. As for Miss Corrie, the patron Saint of Pancakes, I am quite familiar with her sorry tale. Getting in the way of an oncoming bulldozer gets her a Darwin Award, but little sympathy from me. She was protecting a house that contained a tunnel from Egypt which was used to tranport weapons. That makes her a terrorist enabler. Hardly noble. I'm not saying she deserved to die, being an idiot isn't a crime. Check the link below for a photo that captures the kind, sweet persona of Miss Pancake errr Corrie.

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/11168rachel-corrie-flag-02.jpg

 

[sprintman]

Ron calling someones daughter Miss Pancake is a bit of. The IDF has killed quite a number of journo's, cameramen etc over the last few yrs. There was a good documentary on TV about a number of them that I taped but of course my wife, god bless her taped that doyen of all US TV shows "The Bold and The Beautiful over it. I was less than impressed .

 

[Ron Jeremy]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
Ron calling someones daughter Miss Pancake is a bit of. The IDF has killed quite a number of journo's, cameramen etc over the last few yrs. There was a good documentary on TV about a number of them that I taped but of course my wife, god bless her taped that doyen of all US TV shows "The Bold and The Beautiful over it. I was less than impressed .

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Sprintman, these accounts sound like leftwing/Islamofascist fairytales. I'll believe it when I see it. This is all a red herring designed to divert attention from the Pali's savagery which is nicely documented in the link below...

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=20475

 

[sprintman]

Sorry Ron don't agree. Too many 'accidents' for my liking. Just like when the American communication ship USS Liberty got attacked on June 8th 1967 by Israeli Mirages killing 34 Americans and injuring 177. An accident they said then too. US State Dept review released Jan 12th this year says they should be held responsible.

 

[javacontour]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
javacontour
Member
Member # 1740

I'll never forgive you for posting that Loooooooooooong link

I hate lateral scrolling

Israeli bulldozers are like tanks ..the driver is in a sniper resistant bunker, so to speak. The girl was supposed to move out of the way at the last second ...she didn't ..the dozer operator didn't see her due to his obstructed view. That is the account that I read, anyway.

Sad story.

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I guess you need a bigger screen, it fits on mine, LOL

TB

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Regarding the "legality" of it all, I would just like to know what "international law" exists to define what is legal and what is not. ....such a law effectivelly does not exist in places like the Middle East.

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Well you've brought up a few good points of your own. My comfortable upbringing in our most noble nation leads me to think that the word "legal" isn't as important as the term "morally justifiable" or "ethically and philosophically denfensible".

No one would just say that it's okay to declare a nation ..uproot half of the resident population ...expell them. ...take their homes ..their land ..their livelyhoods ...AND just keep lining up your bulldozers and expanding into more and more areas ..expelling more and more resident populations ...and doing it with relative impunity and smug definence of any moral or ethical standard.

quote:

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When you are surrounded by neighbors that want to eliminate you, you don't ask questions, you just fire away.

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This could be some form of rationalization for doing these things. It could be characterized with statements like "Hey, you stole my cow! ..So? You stole my pig, I'm entittled to do it!

When in reality it's more like a cattle rustler and a pig theif in comparative competition for legitimacy. Both are most assuredy "unclean" and neither have even the least bit of moral highground to claim.

 

[sciroccoGTX16V]

I say slap a military embargo on Israel. when they can't fly their planes, they will sit down and negotiate peace. Kicking some Palestinians off their land , so villas can be built and sold to American jews sounds like a war crime to me.
isn;t that what we said in Bosnia and kosovo ?
But Israel will always be the 51 st state so i hope all of us remember to pay our taxes. Our sufferring "brothers" in Israel need them..

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by sciroccoGTX16V:

But Israel will always be the 51 st state so i hope all of us remember to pay our taxes. Our sufferring "brothers" in Israel need them..

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Did you put extra stamps on your tax check this year? It had to go all the way to Iraq.

 

[VeeDubb]

quote:

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they will sit down and negotiate peace. Kicking some Palestinians off their land , so villas can be built and sold to American jews sounds like a war crime to me.

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In the mid-90s, Rabin offered the Palistinians about 90% of what they wanted and they refused. The question is not whether Israel will negotiate. What are the Palis waiting for?

Gary,
As you have pointed out on numerous occassions, I doubt the Arabs want peace, or at least their leaders don't. If they couldn't work with Rabin, they can't work with anybody. What is Israel suppose to do?

Morals and ethics are always tough to define. What is ethical when there is the rule of law is very different from what is ethical when there is no law. For example, it is morally abhorrent to shoot somebody. But if somebody is breaking into my house and threatening to kill my family, and there are no cops around to protect us, it seems ethically legitimate to me.

I'm not saying Israel is completely clean of all of this, but I don't recall Israel ever threatening to wipe Syria, Jordan, or other neighbors off the face of the earth as they have done with Israel.

As for carving out the nation of Israel, yep, your right, there is no moral justification for this. It was a British/U.N. gig, but then again, we can say the same thing about any border in the Middle East. The Palistinians that were booted off the land got a raw deal. But then again, if my memory of history is correct, the Jews also inhabited this land at one time and didn't exactly voluntarily leave.

If we are going to go with arbitrary definitions of who has a right to what land, lets at least be consistent about it. My take is the two peoples should just sit down, hug each other, and coexist on that land, one Israeli state and one Palistinian state, but I doubt that will happen.

[ April 21, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: VeeDubb ]

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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As you have pointed out on numerous occassions, I doubt the Arabs want peace, or at least their leaders don't. If they couldn't work with Rabin, they can't work with anybody. What is Israel suppose to do?

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I believe Israel is in concert with "these" Arab leaders. That is, Israel is AND the Palestinians are "taking the hits" for this charade. The Palestinians are a "heat sink" for the region's anxiety that is "used" by OUR propped up Arab leaders to give the pathetic Arab populations something to look at and feel "more fortunate than our Palestinian brothers"(they, btw, in other situations, be more than happy to slit the throat of a Palestinian). Israel accepts this role and extracts its payment by doing what it wants.

That is, "Okay ...you want to paint me the "Great Infidel"? You want me to be the focus of your people's hatred? You want me to help you maintain your grip on your populations by giving them somewhere else to look (instead of to internal corruption)? OKAY!!! Here's what I'm going to do.

Although this wasn't always the case, right NOW Israel does more for regional security that ever before. If you just magically removed Israel ..the void left by having that "idealogical enemy" vanish would have massive internal revolts springing up everywhere. This would send serious ripples throughout the world.

Israel and the Palestinians serve a purpose far beyond their "apparent" situation. Israel extracts "payment" for this service. Palestinians have the unknown honor of saving many many lives for their plight.

Suicide bombings is a small price to pay if you consider what "peace" may mean to this troubled region. Israel accepts these "hits" ..and Arab leaders accept the "hits" that Palestinians take in return (land grabs, retaliation, assasinations).

There is no other plausible explanation for our "token" way of dealing with Israel. Even if you believe that the American Jewish lobby runs the world via proxy ...the "blind eye and the deaf ear" are WAY TOO OBVIOUS in dealing with a nation that appears to stick its nose up in the air and makes a mockery of our "benevolent and fair" image to the world.

This is the "hit" that we take for the stability of the planet.

[ April 21, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Mamala Bay]

Will always say no peace in the Middle East unless the Jews LEAVE<....Jews ain't leaving, whatever options the Jews have is what is happening now. You got have some second thoughts of what the Jews had launched...But the Palestinians are thinking twice and there is another fear to terror in the Middle East.