George, I too am looking forward to your results.
Chuck
Chuck
Amsoil Eao before and after Particle counts
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I believe your figure of 6 microns is a bit large.
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That would mean that anyone who's using a tp bypass would be left with only their basestock and additives ..which should be dissolved solids.
That's a bit hard to buy there, George
That's a bit hard to buy there, George
427Z06, why do you say the 6 micron figure is "a bit large"?
Do you have data indicating that a VI improver does not reach the 5 micron size in high temperature operation? I would very much like to see that data as I have 6 inches of scar tissue from my over-zealous 3 and 6 micron beta 200 filtration of VI improved fluids. I speak from experience and affirmation by the manufacturer of the lubricants of my accomplishments in stripping VI improver, big time..
And as for the "1 MICRON TP bypass", well, Gary, you just summarized the so called "1 micron" filters true effectiveness.. That they are 10 micron+ filters at best..
Again, I am only referring to VI improver, NOT the normal additization components. We can very effectively filter to 1 micron without affecting addization for non VI improved oils.
And of course most synthetics use a minimal amount of VI improver (supposedly) but I have managed to drop a grade with my amazing 3 micron beta 1000 filters! i.e. I speak from painful real world experience....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Do you have data indicating that a VI improver does not reach the 5 micron size in high temperature operation? I would very much like to see that data as I have 6 inches of scar tissue from my over-zealous 3 and 6 micron beta 200 filtration of VI improved fluids. I speak from experience and affirmation by the manufacturer of the lubricants of my accomplishments in stripping VI improver, big time..
And as for the "1 MICRON TP bypass", well, Gary, you just summarized the so called "1 micron" filters true effectiveness.. That they are 10 micron+ filters at best..
Again, I am only referring to VI improver, NOT the normal additization components. We can very effectively filter to 1 micron without affecting addization for non VI improved oils.
And of course most synthetics use a minimal amount of VI improver (supposedly) but I have managed to drop a grade with my amazing 3 micron beta 1000 filters! i.e. I speak from painful real world experience....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
427, I asked for data, not a bunch of book references...
You said my 6 micron was too large.. Please share the data (not reference books) that indicates my "6 microns" is too large for VI improvers used in engine oils...
VI improvers go beyond simple textbook information in that they have a characteristic of agglomeration which can occur on a filter surface.
Unforutunately I have real world data where I indeed stripped significant amounts of VI improver with the utilization of 3 micron Beta 1000 filtration; did not even get to the 1 micron beta 1000 level. I did not want to do this as I had read the same books you read and knew that even 1 micron filtration would not affect addization. I was wrong.. Which is what I am trying to share.....
It is not easy sharing real world information on this site...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
You said my 6 micron was too large.. Please share the data (not reference books) that indicates my "6 microns" is too large for VI improvers used in engine oils...
VI improvers go beyond simple textbook information in that they have a characteristic of agglomeration which can occur on a filter surface.
Unforutunately I have real world data where I indeed stripped significant amounts of VI improver with the utilization of 3 micron Beta 1000 filtration; did not even get to the 1 micron beta 1000 level. I did not want to do this as I had read the same books you read and knew that even 1 micron filtration would not affect addization. I was wrong.. Which is what I am trying to share.....
It is not easy sharing real world information on this site...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
All you're sharing is words typed on forum which is a lot less credible than references acknowledged by the scientific community as a whole. Words that once claimed Mobil oil didn't contain Na in it's additive package.
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This should not be hard to PROVE. Simply take a 10w-40 and run it through a mutually agreed upon level of filtration and send it in to have the visc checked. If it's a 10 weight basestock ..(with some minor variations for whatever) then it's probably true that filters can indeed filter VII. If, otoh, the fluid is still a 10w-40 ..then it is hignly unlikely that VII can be filtered.
Just seeing the level of bypass filtration used ..even at a low level of effiency (50% -whatever) for the sub 6um level ..and seeing no indication of loss of viscosity ..tends to make me doubt that these polymers can be filtered out with anything short of UF or something that goes down to the particle level.
Just seeing the level of bypass filtration used ..even at a low level of effiency (50% -whatever) for the sub 6um level ..and seeing no indication of loss of viscosity ..tends to make me doubt that these polymers can be filtered out with anything short of UF or something that goes down to the particle level.
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I just put an email into Kristin Huff at Blackstone to see if they have vacuum flasks and filter media a
If she's got the mojo to do this (which I'm sure she does) ..then it should put the matter to rest ..or at least put it to sleep until the next time
If she's got the mojo to do this (which I'm sure she does) ..then it should put the matter to rest ..or at least put it to sleep until the next time
Don't we kind of do that a millions times a day? Someone with a Pure One and 10w40 installed goes for a 100 mile drive does his oil turn to straight 10w? 6µ is not that much smaller than 30µ when were talking about molecular sized particles.
Gary, that is what I have been *trying* to share..
In my quest for 15/13/10 engine and multi vis tractor fluid, I indeed implemented 3 micron beta 1000 filters in quite a few systems, only to have the end users screaming back at me as their oil analysis results were flagged for being out of viscosity.. Sometimes pretty severely...
I had read the books, seen the movies and thought that 5 microns and below were no issues additive-wise, which IS true for non VI improved oils. I have filtered to 1 micron with no issues for hydraulic oils, etc..
What I am *trying* to share is my real world scar tissue that came about as a result of my naivity regarding VI improvers and their non-book/theretical real world wacky behavior in ultra-fine filtration........
George Morrison, STLE CLS
In my quest for 15/13/10 engine and multi vis tractor fluid, I indeed implemented 3 micron beta 1000 filters in quite a few systems, only to have the end users screaming back at me as their oil analysis results were flagged for being out of viscosity.. Sometimes pretty severely...
I had read the books, seen the movies and thought that 5 microns and below were no issues additive-wise, which IS true for non VI improved oils. I have filtered to 1 micron with no issues for hydraulic oils, etc..
What I am *trying* to share is my real world scar tissue that came about as a result of my naivity regarding VI improvers and their non-book/theretical real world wacky behavior in ultra-fine filtration........
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Which is why I was asking you and 427 if either of you had real world testing with ISO 16889 variable flow rated filters in the 5 micron region with results contrary to my results...
NOT reference book material.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
NOT reference book material.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
And when I DID reduce the viscosities, I contacted the formulators of each product only to be told "no, you cannot filter below 6 microns for that product as VI improver will be stripped".. After the fact and with much egg on my face...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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I see where you're coming from, George. Still this is rather radical counter culture view here. Bruce might have some comments from the blender end of it to bolster your position.
Hey, pal
This is the internet. You've got to double check your sources no matter how convincing the assertion. A couple of independent instances would sure go a long way to putting some moxie into your rhetorical punch, would they not???
Hey, pal
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That's sorta my thought. If this is true ..then some VII would be filtered to some degree with any filter. The better the filter ..the more VII would be removed ...or so I reason
A couple of threads about VII filtering:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post740248
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post204080
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post740248
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post204080
Quote:
That's sorta my thought. If this is true ..then some VII would be filtered to some degree with any filter. The better the filter ..the more VII would be removed ...or so I reason
Better yet, in addition to the Pure One, what if someone sticks on a supposed 1µ Amsoil bypass filter and goes for a long drive? Even if it is in reality a 10 absolute filter, it should be turning that 10w40 into straight 10w in short order. It not in the nature of filters to behave as unit step functions and miraculously turn on at exactly some micron level. Look at the distribution of particle counts for evidence.
If the VII is removed it would be turned into a straight 40 weight I believe.
Would you expect any problems with Amsoil ATF and a 3 micron absolute fiberglass filter? I assume they use no to low VII.
I believe 427 is correct that a 10W40 stripped of VII would become more like a 10W than a 40W. VII help to thicken oil at higher temps.
Which is to my original point in that these filters that are advertised as "l micron" filters are really more like 10 to 30 micron filters. If one really begins using microglass elements rated at varying flows to 3 and 6 microns, you betcha, VI improver is going to begin to get stripped. And no, it is not going to turn a 10W-40 into a 10W oil. But I have accomplilshed turning a 10W-40 into a 10W-30 oil in short order with a 3 micron beta 1000 microglass element..
I was rather the perfectionist in achieving 15/13/10 in an engine and I finally had filtration capable of achieving it only to get the ugly phone calls from the end users of my by-product of viscosity reductions.. Just out of grade, that's all, which is of MAJOR consequence in severe diesele applications...
And yes, there may well be problems with Amsoil ATF and a 3 micron absolute filter but I do not know the formulation for Amsoil ATF and if/how much VI improver is used. If no VI improver is used, no issue whatever.
That said,a moot point in that there are very few 3 micron filters currently being manufactured that are rated at 3 microns absolute with varying oil flow rate... And certainly no 3 micron absolute filters are being manufactured for transmission applications that I am aware of...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
I was rather the perfectionist in achieving 15/13/10 in an engine and I finally had filtration capable of achieving it only to get the ugly phone calls from the end users of my by-product of viscosity reductions.. Just out of grade, that's all, which is of MAJOR consequence in severe diesele applications...
And yes, there may well be problems with Amsoil ATF and a 3 micron absolute filter but I do not know the formulation for Amsoil ATF and if/how much VI improver is used. If no VI improver is used, no issue whatever.
That said,a moot point in that there are very few 3 micron filters currently being manufactured that are rated at 3 microns absolute with varying oil flow rate... And certainly no 3 micron absolute filters are being manufactured for transmission applications that I am aware of...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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