I emailed Amsoil's technical department to get a definitive answer as to wether or not SSO, ASM, ASL, or ATM contained any Group III. I received the following answer from Steve Pelach: "The Technical Department is not privy to what base-stocks are used in specific products. However, we can tell you that we do utilize the best synthetic base-stocks, including group IV, in our formulations. We view synthetic base oils the same as we view additives, with each having its own set of unique properties. In addition, our lubricants are engineered with the best synthetic base oil, or combination of base oils, best suited to a specific lubricant’s application demands". This is the same type of response Mobil recites. Frankly, I expected more from Amsoil. After all, I am not asking for the formula. I also called Redline and asked Dave the exact same question. He answered unequivocally that NONE of their products contain Group III. Everything they sell is exclusively Group V with some Group IV. In other words, the real deal.
Amsoil and Group III
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The number 1 rule of fight club is you do not talk about fight club!
I doubt they use much if any GrpIII in their non-XL. Probably some ester and a good dose of AN which is fine with me.
Any oil company that gives an answer like that does not need a technical department. Any secretary that answers a phone could give a canned answer like that.
I'm not picking on Amsoil, but I am disappointed that it appears they have now joined the rest of the bunch.
I'm not picking on Amsoil, but I am disappointed that it appears they have now joined the rest of the bunch.
That's the standard answer the phone folks will give you. It's been posted here many times. Not sure why anyone here within recent history would be surprised.
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.aspx
And this:
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Answer: As the developer of the world's first API qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972, AMSOIL has gained more experience than any other oil company in formulating automotive synthetic lubricants. It is this extensive experience that provides the ability to maximize product performance through use of a full range of high-performance synthetic base oils, most notably polyalphaolefin (PAO). AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives, with each having its own set of unique properties. AMSOIL engineers its lubricants with the synthetic base oil or combination of base oils best suited to a specific lubricant’s application demands (gasoline, diesel, racing, transmission, gear, extended drain, extreme temperature, etc.).
AMSOIL INC. maintains an unwavering commitment to provide products that outperform the competition and deliver maximum benefits to all AMSOIL customers. Performance is the bottom line.
The oils mentioned do not contain Group III oils.
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.aspx
And this:
Quote:
Answer: As the developer of the world's first API qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972, AMSOIL has gained more experience than any other oil company in formulating automotive synthetic lubricants. It is this extensive experience that provides the ability to maximize product performance through use of a full range of high-performance synthetic base oils, most notably polyalphaolefin (PAO). AMSOIL views synthetic base oils the same as it views additives, with each having its own set of unique properties. AMSOIL engineers its lubricants with the synthetic base oil or combination of base oils best suited to a specific lubricant’s application demands (gasoline, diesel, racing, transmission, gear, extended drain, extreme temperature, etc.).
AMSOIL INC. maintains an unwavering commitment to provide products that outperform the competition and deliver maximum benefits to all AMSOIL customers. Performance is the bottom line.
The oils mentioned do not contain Group III oils.
Pablo, with all due respect, you haven't shown us anything that verifies that the products in question contain zero Group III. Furthermore, the link you provided is six years old. Merely stating that there is no Group III in these oils doesn't prove anything. I want to hear it directly from Amsoil, not one of their local sales reps. If they won't answer a simple question like this from a consumer that wants to know what justifies spending top dollar on their premier boutique products, then they are as indifferent as Exxon-Mobil and no more deserving of my business. We have come to expect duplicity from XOM, but I was quite surprised to get the same from Amsoil. I had NO problem getting a direct answer from Redline's technical department. Could this be that they are the only manufacturer left that has nothing to hide?
By posting that info, I wasn't trying to provide you with proof that the products "contain zero Group III". I posted the info to show you that there should be no surprise in Amsoil's statements. When M1 started to get hammered here a couple years ago for the same thing, naturally a whole bunch of people did exactly what you did. There should be zero surpise that Amsoil now has a canned answer. I would not call this indifference or duplicity, I would say they don't want to get into the "how much group IV and how much group V" game. Please ask Redline how much PAO is in their street oils.
Amsoil has their formulas to hide and will not give out information on the formulas. My statement is from the inside. The oils you list contain no Group III. I'm a Direct Dealer, not a "local sales rep"
Amsoil has their formulas to hide and will not give out information on the formulas. My statement is from the inside. The oils you list contain no Group III. I'm a Direct Dealer, not a "local sales rep"
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Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...772#Post1179772
Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...772#Post1179772
I did ask Dave how much PAO is in their street oils, and he stated that they contain "mostly POE with a small amount of PAO". I find this to be a highly satisfactory answer. It confirms the presence of PAO but does not disclose percentages or formulas. If XOM or Amsoil stated that a given product contained "a small amount of Group III" or "no Group III", I would consider that to be a highly satisfactory answer as well. However, what you get is nothing more than what I consider to be obfuscation. Lets be clear; this is a very simple yes or no question that in no way discloses proprietary information. Refusal to give a direct answer raises doubts about something for which there should be no doubt when you are talking about spending over seven dollars for a quart of oil. After all, as Amsoil stated in the link you provided, the only reason to use a Group III base oil is to keep the price down.
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Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.
I have made no reference to the performance of any motor oil in this thread. This is about knowing what justifies the high price of products like SSO or Redline. In Redline's case, a majority POE content with the rest being PAO and zero Group III certainly explains the high price. In other cases, slick marketing intended to fool the masses may be the explanation. BTW, I am not making this allegation about Amsoil, as I do believe they make solid products. However, their forthrightness leaves something to be desired.
Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.
I have made no reference to the performance of any motor oil in this thread. This is about knowing what justifies the high price of products like SSO or Redline. In Redline's case, a majority POE content with the rest being PAO and zero Group III certainly explains the high price. In other cases, slick marketing intended to fool the masses may be the explanation. BTW, I am not making this allegation about Amsoil, as I do believe they make solid products. However, their forthrightness leaves something to be desired.
Call them back and word the question different, like I want to try your $10.00 per qt oil and I want to know if blah blah blah . Oh then You can take the oil and shove it up your %#&^* cause I am not going to use your product if I don't know what I am spending the $10.00 per qt on ,oil be a good consumer.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
In Redline's case, a majority POE content with the rest being PAO and zero Group III certainly explains the high price. In other cases, slick marketing intended to fool the masses may be the explanation. BTW, I am not making this allegation about Amsoil, as I do believe they make solid products. However, their forthrightness leaves something to be desired.
Amsoil was forthright as was Redline; each chose to release a certiain amount of information.
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In other words, the real deal.
So what is the real deal?
I understand your frustration, but Amsoil didn't create this BBB fiasco.
For me, I'll stick with the definition of a synthetic base oil as "consisting of chemical compounds which were not originally present in crude oil (petroleum), but were artificially made (synthesized) from other compounds."
That includes PAO, synthesized ester, and alkylated Benzenes and naphthalenes, PAGS, PEGS, etc.
In Redline's case, a majority POE content with the rest being PAO and zero Group III certainly explains the high price. In other cases, slick marketing intended to fool the masses may be the explanation. BTW, I am not making this allegation about Amsoil, as I do believe they make solid products. However, their forthrightness leaves something to be desired.
Amsoil was forthright as was Redline; each chose to release a certiain amount of information.
Quote:
In other words, the real deal.
So what is the real deal?
I understand your frustration, but Amsoil didn't create this BBB fiasco.
For me, I'll stick with the definition of a synthetic base oil as "consisting of chemical compounds which were not originally present in crude oil (petroleum), but were artificially made (synthesized) from other compounds."
That includes PAO, synthesized ester, and alkylated Benzenes and naphthalenes, PAGS, PEGS, etc.
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Complaining about base stocks is just step 1 in a path to eventually complaining about price. R&D is also factored into price and no one except a few on this board might know what that costs.
I wouldn't walk away from a Group III oil that lasts 15K miles and costs $7/qt just because it is Group III,
I wouldn't walk away from a Group III oil that lasts 15K miles and costs $7/qt just because it is Group III,
I agree with not walk away from a group 3 oil. However I do agree with walking away from a company that charges so much and will not say what its got in it and I don't mean the whole formula but at least an answer like redline gave. If group 3 is so good (which I believe it is) then why not just be honest and say its got it in it. And im not trying to say Amsoil does use Group 3 in all their oils. Im just making a point.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
In Redline's case, a majority POE content with the rest being PAO and zero Group III certainly explains the high price. In other cases, slick marketing intended to fool the masses may be the explanation. BTW, I am not making this allegation about Amsoil, as I do believe they make solid products. However, their forthrightness leaves something to be desired.
Amsoil was forthright as was Redline; each chose to release a certain amount of information.
Quote:
In other words, the real deal.
So what is the real deal?
I understand your frustration, but Amsoil didn't create this BBB fiasco.
For me, I'll stick with the definition of a synthetic base oil as "consisting of chemical compounds which were not originally present in crude oil (petroleum), but were artificially made (synthesized) from other compounds."
That includes PAO, synthesized ester, and alkylated Benzenes and naphthalenes, PAGS, PEGS, etc.
If you are giving Amsoil credit for being forthright, then you must feel the same about Exxon-Mobil. A dictionary definition of forthright is "direct and without evasion". This certainly applies to the response I received from Dave at Redline. Amsoil's response was a non-answer to a simple question. Amsoil may not have created this "fiasco", but they could certainly choose to rise above the lowest common denominator and be clear with their customers about what it is that they are getting for ten dollars per quart. I agree completely with your definition of a synthetic base oil. Thus my frustration with manufacturers peddling "fully synthetic" motor oils that actually contain plenty of chemical compounds which were originally present in crude oil. Regardless of how well a given oil performs, if it contains any Group III, it is not "fully synthetic". If a manufacturer expects someone to pay eight to ten dollars for a quart of oil, I believe that they should be willing to provide unequivocal answers to this very basic question. If Amsoil gave a either a yes or a no, its not like anyone could use this information to whip up a batch of SSO. Give me a break! If I choose to buy a five quart jug of M1 at Wal-Mart for $22.98, I know that at that price point, regardless of the what the label states, I am probably getting some GIII. Why is it that Redline is happy to answer this and other similar questions? Are their formulas not as proprietary and valuable? Or could it be that they are the only manufacturer out there producing a synthetic product line that meets the true definition of synthetic?
Quote:
In Redline's case, a majority POE content with the rest being PAO and zero Group III certainly explains the high price. In other cases, slick marketing intended to fool the masses may be the explanation. BTW, I am not making this allegation about Amsoil, as I do believe they make solid products. However, their forthrightness leaves something to be desired.
Amsoil was forthright as was Redline; each chose to release a certain amount of information.
Quote:
In other words, the real deal.
So what is the real deal?
I understand your frustration, but Amsoil didn't create this BBB fiasco.
For me, I'll stick with the definition of a synthetic base oil as "consisting of chemical compounds which were not originally present in crude oil (petroleum), but were artificially made (synthesized) from other compounds."
That includes PAO, synthesized ester, and alkylated Benzenes and naphthalenes, PAGS, PEGS, etc.
If you are giving Amsoil credit for being forthright, then you must feel the same about Exxon-Mobil. A dictionary definition of forthright is "direct and without evasion". This certainly applies to the response I received from Dave at Redline. Amsoil's response was a non-answer to a simple question. Amsoil may not have created this "fiasco", but they could certainly choose to rise above the lowest common denominator and be clear with their customers about what it is that they are getting for ten dollars per quart. I agree completely with your definition of a synthetic base oil. Thus my frustration with manufacturers peddling "fully synthetic" motor oils that actually contain plenty of chemical compounds which were originally present in crude oil. Regardless of how well a given oil performs, if it contains any Group III, it is not "fully synthetic". If a manufacturer expects someone to pay eight to ten dollars for a quart of oil, I believe that they should be willing to provide unequivocal answers to this very basic question. If Amsoil gave a either a yes or a no, its not like anyone could use this information to whip up a batch of SSO. Give me a break! If I choose to buy a five quart jug of M1 at Wal-Mart for $22.98, I know that at that price point, regardless of the what the label states, I am probably getting some GIII. Why is it that Redline is happy to answer this and other similar questions? Are their formulas not as proprietary and valuable? Or could it be that they are the only manufacturer out there producing a synthetic product line that meets the true definition of synthetic?
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Actually, you DON'T know that you are getting some GIII with the M1, which I think is the point you are trying to make. I would be shocked if the TDT or the 0w40 contain ANY GIII...... Their 5w30, if any of them do, likely does........
EM is the largest (to my knowledge) producer/supplier of synthetic base stocks. I don't know if I would say it's LIKELY, but it's quite possible that a lot of the synthetic oils (AMSOIL does for example) contains base stocks that came FROM Exxon-Mobil. There is no escaping them! *cue evil music* LOL!
EM is the largest (to my knowledge) producer/supplier of synthetic base stocks. I don't know if I would say it's LIKELY, but it's quite possible that a lot of the synthetic oils (AMSOIL does for example) contains base stocks that came FROM Exxon-Mobil. There is no escaping them! *cue evil music* LOL!
I would imagine the 5w30 and 10w30 Mobil 1 probably have group III in them, but the only manufacturer that might make better Group III base stocks than ExxonMobil is Shell with their XHVI.
ExxonMobil makes more base oils of a variety of calibers than anyone else and when you buy anything from Valvoline or Supertech to Amsoil to Mobil 1 and beyond you are probably buying some ExxonMobil base stocks. Chevron, Shell, ConocoPhillips, Hatco, Petro-Canada and the Koreans of all sorts are the biggest producers of groups II+ to V base oils besides ExxonMobil, there are only so many places for it to come from.
ExxonMobil makes more base oils of a variety of calibers than anyone else and when you buy anything from Valvoline or Supertech to Amsoil to Mobil 1 and beyond you are probably buying some ExxonMobil base stocks. Chevron, Shell, ConocoPhillips, Hatco, Petro-Canada and the Koreans of all sorts are the biggest producers of groups II+ to V base oils besides ExxonMobil, there are only so many places for it to come from.
If anything the most likely Amsoil product for me to buy is the XL line because although it is group III it performs much better than advertised or the price would give away.
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.aspx
This is an old article but it basically expressly says the XL-7500 is group III and everything else is PAO, and I can't imagine them deviating from that too much.
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.aspx
This is an old article but it basically expressly says the XL-7500 is group III and everything else is PAO, and I can't imagine them deviating from that too much.
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Originally Posted By: MGregoir
I would imagine the 5w30 and 10w30 Mobil 1 probably have group III in them, but the only manufacturer that might make better Group III base stocks than ExxonMobil is Shell with their XHVI.
ExxonMobil makes more base oils of a variety of calibers than anyone else and when you buy anything from Valvoline or Supertech to Amsoil to Mobil 1 and beyond you are probably buying some ExxonMobil base stocks. Chevron, Shell, ConocoPhillips, Hatco, Petro-Canada and the Koreans of all sorts are the biggest producers of groups II+ to V base oils besides ExxonMobil, there are only so many places for it to come from.
Again, nothing in this thread has to do with the relative merits of GIII versus GIV/V. Nor is the quality of any particular GIII base oil being questioned. I don't doubt that Amsoil sources some or all of their PAO from Exxon-Mobil. Redline probably gets their POE from Hatco. But even a portion of the Amsoil link Pablo provided above differentiates Group III in the XL line from their "top tier basestocks". Top tier prices should guarantee top tier basestocks which means Group IV and V only. If Amsoil can disclose that XL is Group III, then they can also disclose that SSO, ASL, ASM, and ATM contain no Group III. Unless, of course, they do.
I would imagine the 5w30 and 10w30 Mobil 1 probably have group III in them, but the only manufacturer that might make better Group III base stocks than ExxonMobil is Shell with their XHVI.
ExxonMobil makes more base oils of a variety of calibers than anyone else and when you buy anything from Valvoline or Supertech to Amsoil to Mobil 1 and beyond you are probably buying some ExxonMobil base stocks. Chevron, Shell, ConocoPhillips, Hatco, Petro-Canada and the Koreans of all sorts are the biggest producers of groups II+ to V base oils besides ExxonMobil, there are only so many places for it to come from.
Again, nothing in this thread has to do with the relative merits of GIII versus GIV/V. Nor is the quality of any particular GIII base oil being questioned. I don't doubt that Amsoil sources some or all of their PAO from Exxon-Mobil. Redline probably gets their POE from Hatco. But even a portion of the Amsoil link Pablo provided above differentiates Group III in the XL line from their "top tier basestocks". Top tier prices should guarantee top tier basestocks which means Group IV and V only. If Amsoil can disclose that XL is Group III, then they can also disclose that SSO, ASL, ASM, and ATM contain no Group III. Unless, of course, they do.
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