American police cars -- why so big?

[moribundman]

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I can't say that ALL do, but I can tell you that some of the polizei that I have seen here in Germany do indeed carry guns.

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The only European cops that don't wear a hand firearm are British bobbies, which are more of a mix of traffic cop and good Samaritan.

German Polizei, including KRIPO, Landpolizei, and Autobahnpolizei are all armed. At German airports and in big cities you will see Bundsgrenzschutz (border patrol) and task force units armed with, depending on situation, any of those puppies:


Glock 17 (cal 9 x 19 mm)
P7 M8 (cal 9 x 19 mm)
Heckler & Koch MP5
Modell 551 - SWAT (SIG) (cal 5,56 x 45 mm)
Modell Styer Aug (Stgw 77) Steyr (cal 5,56 x 45 mm))
G 36
PSG 1 (cal 7,62 x 51 mm)
Heckler & Koch G8 (cal 7,62 x 51 mm)
HK 502 cal 12
Remington M 870 cal 12/76
Benelli M 3

Is that enough fire power for y'all?

 

[mikemc]

Large, heavy, rear drive cars are better for ramming and spinning out the morons who insist on running fom the police.

 

[moribundman]

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Large, heavy, rear drive cars are better for ramming and spinning out the morons who insist on running fom the police.

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That's a very good point. Many US police cars also have reinforced bumpers, suitable for playing bumper cars.

 

[pastmaster]

Gang, The front engined RWD chassis is what has been developed in the USA since the early teens. That's what we still make best, ie.pickup trucks, Front V8/RWD. It's been developed to the Nth degree, engineered and financially. Why? Because it fits the demographics and population...It git's 'er done! They aren't fuel efficient or economically cheap to operate or buy. but for the all around tasks required of it...It is still the BEST!

We are a big people with big guns.

 

[moribundman]

Not only with big guns...

 

[SWS]

I have read in the newspaper for many years that the Police wanted / needed full-frame cars for their proven durability compared to uni-body cars. Also, Taxi companies in some large, pot-holed cities previously stated that full-frame cars last much longer in service than uni-body cars. I don't know the latest news on this in the past 5 years, but if private companies have seen the cost & uptime advantage, then I think that is significant.

In addition to the size of the car needed for equipment, hauling stuff, etc, the police officers are trained to drive these big cars in pursuit, and so I speculate that there is a "momentum factor" to keep using these large RWD cars. I remember when the Chevy Caprice was discontinued that many Police departments were upset because they loved the way it handled in pursuit. This was in the national news several times and I was very surprised, but I had to respect their opinion because they put their life on the line in these cars! There was even some news about several companies that offered to fully recondition & detail used Caprices to make them "like new" inside, outside, and underside. The last I heard, this was a good business for these enterprising small companies.

 

[kenw]

I remember a TV interview years ago where the police complained that with their new cars (Mustang 5.0), they had to call a second officer with a larger vehicle to take the perp' to the pokey. The pony cars were great in chases they said but were so full of gizmos that the backseat was useless.

The Texas Highway patrol uses many Tahoes and full-sized pickups presently. Without the rooftops lights (they're interior mounted now) they can really sneak up on you!!

 

[simple_gifts]

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Originally posted by Jeffrey:

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Originally posted by kloppilt:
The European cops don't even carry guns.

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I can't say that ALL do, but I can tell you that some of the polizei that I have seen here in Germany do indeed carry guns.

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I believe I saw Italian state police with automatic weapons using "the lollipop" to pull people over. One guy sticks it out in the road, you PULL OVER; the other guy with the automatic weapon is a potent persuader.

 

[XS650]

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Originally posted by SWS:
I have read in the newspaper for many years that the Police wanted / needed full-frame cars for their proven durability compared to uni-body cars. Also, Taxi companies in some large, pot-holed cities previously stated that full-frame cars last much longer in service than uni-body cars. I don't know the latest news on this in the past 5 years, but if private companies have seen the cost & uptime advantage, then I think that is significant.

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I think the difference is more how well either design is done than one being better than the other. A Mercedes(uni-body) is a lot solider feeling with 300,000 miles on it than a Crown Vic is.

If unibody is good enough for Mercedes and main battle tanks, the problem is with the level of US auto unibody design, not the fact that they are unibody.

[ September 24, 2005, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: XS650 ]

 

[moribundman]

How long does the average US cop car remain in service, in terms of time and mileage?

 

[JohnnyO]

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Originally posted by moribundman:
How long does the average US cop car remain in service, in terms of time and mileage?

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Depends where they are, but on average 3 years and 80 to 100,000 miles.

Couple things. Durability is better with a body-on-frame car. Cop cars tend to get wrecked with greater frequency than Joe Citizen's car, so crash protection is another. Cops need to be able to stuff a larger-than-average cuffed perp into the back seat and he often doesn't want to go. So a bigger car is better on a lot of fronts.

Like ALS, I've seen the front-drive assorted GM cop cars that Pittsburgh has used for about 15 years now. Most likely because of better traction in our hilly terrain in the winter. They look real battered real quick though.

My town uses Crown Vics. They smaller town where I work has a fleet of 2 Impalas.

The Camaro and Mustang cop cars where never meant to carry perps in the back seat. They were always for highway pursuit and handing out tickets and if someone needed arrested, calling another car to haul them away was SOP.

Back in the early 80's, another town here tried Olds Delta 88 diesels as cop cars and actually liked them real well. They bought them from the Olds dealer I worked at then. We ordered base Delta 88's optioned with HD suspension, HD cooling, gauge package, bigger tires, and limited-slip axles, as Olds did not have a specific police package. Performance was good enough and they saved a bundle on fuel. At that same time, my town had converted their Crown Vics to run on propane.

 

[SWS]

XS650 - I agree with you!

 

[wander2039]

Perception, the bigger the badder, tends to be the american way. With enough skill a full fleet of smaller turbo powered econo boxes would be able stand up in any high speed pursuits, and to me would be better in town. Most of are taken out with spike strips anyhow.

 

[Kernel Potter]

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originally posted by SWS
I have read in the newspaper for many years that the Police wanted / needed full-frame cars for their proven durability compared to uni-body cars. Also, Taxi companies in some large, pot-holed cities previously stated that full-frame cars last much longer in service than uni-body cars. I don't know the latest news on this in the past 5 years, but if private companies have seen the cost & uptime advantage, then I think that is significant.

originally posted by XS650:
I think the difference is more how well either design is done than one being better than the other. A Mercedes(uni-body) is a lot solider feeling with 300,000 miles on it than a Crown Vic is.

If unibody is good enough for Mercedes and main battle tanks, the problem is with the level of US auto unibody design, not the fact that they are unibody.

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Which makes me wonder, why are all the police departments here turning down police package MB E320s for $25,000? If selling a V8, full size car for police and taxi use, for about $25K, is good enough for Ford, then no question Mercedes Benz can do it too.

Maybe the police departments and taxi fleets are waiting for the 200hp+ full size Mercedes Benz S class for $25,000 instead?

 

[Chris142]

 

[kingrob]

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Back in the early 80's, another town here tried Olds Delta 88 diesels as cop cars and actually liked them real well. They bought them from the Olds dealer I worked at then. We ordered base Delta 88's optioned with HD suspension, HD cooling, gauge package, bigger tires, and limited-slip axles, as Olds did not have a specific police package. Performance was good enough and they saved a bundle on fuel. At that same time, my town had converted their Crown Vics to run on propane.

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You know, looking back now the Olds 350 diesel is an oft maligned engine, another example of what people might call America trying to compete with Europe and totally screwing everything up, but the folks I talk to that really put their cars through the paces look back fondly on GM's diesel.

I've never owned one so I can't speak from experience but it seems the ones who had the most trouble were the little old lady-types that drove thier Cadillacs to church once a week, etc but the guys that used these for patrol and taxi use say at the time it was the best American motor on the market, very highly regarded.

Maybe it was one of those designs that lent itself to abuse but couldn't tolerate anemic sporadic use.

BTW I remember the Ford propane cars. I had a Country Squire that ran off it and I hated it, just from a sheer practicality standpoint. Being a taxi driver I had to turn down some pretty good, long trips because I wouldn't have enough 'pane in the tank to make it back home from wherever we went. That and the telltale puff of smoke that I would generate whenever I idled more than a few seconds. I called it the stinky squire.

 

[GMGuy]

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Which makes me wonder, why are all the police departments here turning down police package MB E320s for $25,000? If selling a V8, full size car for police and taxi use, for about $25K, is good enough for Ford, then no question Mercedes Benz can do it too.

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Quite possibly hidden costs.
I have no idea what MB parts cost, but brake pads, alternators and other common wear items can be had for dirt cheap for the cv.
Also include in that time to repair, if it only takes X minutes to change an alternator on a cv, but X+Y minutes on a mb, it may be a factor when the pd is looking at a new cruiser. Anyone with a time quide that can look up book time on various common jobs?
Built in infrastructure. Our pd runs all the cruisers on propane. There are various 24 hour card access sites around the city if the need arrises to refuel, what sort of startup costs would diesel incur to have strategic refueling areas available 24 hours?

Alex.

 

[JohnnyO]

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Originally posted by kingrob:

I've never owned one so I can't speak from experience but it seems the ones who had the most trouble were the little old lady-types that drove thier Cadillacs to church once a week, etc but the guys that used these for patrol and taxi use say at the time it was the best American motor on the market, very highly regarded.

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Basically, you're 100% on. A lot of them were sold to old folks who like the idea of good mpg and no tune-ups, but those are the same folks who tended to neglect the basic and some other extra maintenance required. People who putted around town and put on 8k a year had problems, people who drove them a lot and maintained them properly had few problems. Mostly it was sensitive to, and required, frequent oil and coolant changes, and the fuel filter and fuel/water seperator were things you had to keep an eye on that most people weren't used to having to do.
I'm not saying it was perfect, but it was largely sold to the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

 

[Jimbo]

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originally posted by SWS
I have read in the newspaper for many years that the Police wanted / needed full-frame cars for their proven durability compared to uni-body cars. Also, Taxi companies in some large, pot-holed cities previously stated that full-frame cars last much longer in service than uni-body cars. ..

If unibody is good enough for Mercedes and main battle tanks, the problem is with the level of US auto unibody design, not the fact that they are unibody.

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Exactly. That Oceanside Polara pictured above was unibody. Those old unibody Mopars were actually heavier than the body-on-frame GM cars of the day.

 

[redmex]

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I don't know why Europeons use a lot of little four cylinders (maybe the extra high cost of petrol?)

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Hi!

I just saw your discussion when looking for the perfect oil for my '96 Caprice 9c1.

I believe you're right, kingrob.
Right now regular gasoline is at 1.30 EUR for one liter, this is 6.05 US Dollar for one gallon. Diesel is about 5.12 USD/gal.
Nearly every fleet automotive is a Diesel in Germany because it get's a far better gas milage. Midsize cars are used for villages and towns like Volkswagen Golf Station Wagon. Bigger cars are used in Citys and on Autobahn like Volkswagen Passat, Mercedes E Class, Opel Omega / Vectra and BMW 5 Series. Quite common are Volkswagen Eurobus / Van, less Touran.
When kicking a Volkswagen Passat Turbo Diesel you will get about 35 mpg.

http://www.euro2004-camp.com/hr-inline2004/Langen_Skater_Start3_mit_Polizei.jpg

http://www.geektimes.com/michael/site/archive/2004/12/images/polizei-porsche.jpg

http://www.einsatzvideos.net/Wallpapers/wallpapers.shtml

But I believe around the world it's common to use the cars which are build in the own country...

Greetings from Germany,
redmex