American Car badge engineering. What is what?

[expat]

I fist came to North America in the mid 70's and I saw cars and trucks that appeared basically the same, but sold under different names.
Chevrolet, GMC
Pontiac, Oldsmobile
Plymouth, Dodge
Ford, Mercury
etc. etc.

Badge Engineering!

We had the same thing in the U.K. Austin and Morris, Hillman and Sunbeam.

But I later began to understand that each brand 'possibly' catered for a market niche, weather real, or by historical implication. ie. Pontiac might possibly be considered a more sporty brand than Chevy?

Can someone here try to inform me what niche or class common NA brands might try to represent, in their market segment.

 

[dparm]

It gets even more complicated when you have Pontiac and Toyota collaborating (Vibe/Matrix) or Dodge and VW (Caravan/Routan)...I could go on and on.

But yes, each of the badges [at one time] catered to a separate market. Pontiac was sporty, Lincoln was luxury, etc.

 

[Spazdog]

gets more complicated.

Imperial used to be its own marque. Then it was a Chrysler model. Now its in the refuse bin with Plymouth.

 

[jimbrewer]

Well, it changed over time. for example, Oldsmobile in the 1950's held what is now BMW's market niche. Later, it became the luxury brand just under Cadillac. Dodge was the higher-end brother to Plymouth (although almost nobody knew it so poor was the line differentiation). I guess Chrysler was a luxury brand. GMC pickup was heavy-duty brother to Chevy, but not necessarily more luxurious.

 

[expat]

I was recently told that Chrysler was Up-market from Plymouth?

But Olds and Buick ??

They both seem up-market Chevy, like Mercury to Ford.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: expat
But Olds and Buick ??

They both seem up-market Chevy, like Mercury to Ford.

I'd pretty much agree with that. Having Oldsmobile and Buick holding this middle tier position above Chevy or Pontiac but below Cadillac always seem a bit odd.

For whatever reason, our GM taxis were either of the Caprice/Impala variety or the Delta 88 version. Pontiac and Buick examples were comparatively rare.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Oldsmobile and Buick traditionally both held a mid-level luxury position, but it seems that beginning in the 1980s, they moved Oldsmobile to more of an "import-fighter" position. You saw such Euro-inspired vehicles as the Trofeo and, one of my favorites, the Touring Sedan.

And then into the 1990s, you had cars like the Aurora, which generally had no other GM equal at the time of their introduction (though the Cadillac Seville line would move to that G-chassis platform in 1998). The 2-door Buick Riviera also used this chassis. The Intrigue, while in reality a badge-engineered W-body car (Pontiac Grand Prix, etc), was really set apart from the rest of the GM crowd and pioneered things new to domestic brands at the time, like clear-lens "jeweled" exterior lamp designs. It also featured an exclusive powertrain option, the 3.5L LX5 "Shortstar" V-6. The Intrigue also offered 12" front brakes as part of an Autobahn package. Of the W-bodies offered at the time, the Intrigue was my favorite by far.

My first car was an Oldsmobile (an '84 Cutlass), and I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the brand.

 

[earlyre]

for the North American "big 3" the order seemed to be from "lowest"
GM:
Chevy/Pontiac (with GMC Being the "Tougher" brother to Chevy's Trucks/vans)
Chrysler:
Plymouth
Ford:
Ford
Then in the 90's the japanese started making fancier versions of their cars:

Toyota
Nissan
Honda
then there were Co-Ventures between US and Japanese brands
GM:
Geo - Mostly rebadged Suzuki's, except for the Prizm, which was a Toyota Corolla
Pontiac Vibe - rebadged Toyota Matrix(Corolla wagon)

Chrysler:
partnered with Mitsubishi for many years,
Mitsubishi Eclipse/Eagle Talon/Plymouth Laser
Mitsubishi Starion/Plymouth Conquest/Dodge Conquest/Chrysler Conquest
Mitsubishi Mirage/Dodge Colt/Plymouth Champ/Plymouth Colt/Eagle Vista/Eagle Summit
etc.

Ford had a long Partnership with mazda:
Ford Ranger/ Mazda B series
Ford Explorer/ Mazda Navajo
Ford Probe/ Mazda RX-7/Mazda 626
1987-89 Mercury Tracer/Mazda 323
1991+ Ford Escort/Mercury Tracer/Mazda 323/Mazda Protoge

and i'm sure i'm forgetting a great deal more

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Back in the mid 80's (about 1984) my wife and I vacationed in Michigan for a couple weeks, and toured the Buick, Olds, Cadillac plant in Lansing (plants #1 and #6 if I remember correctly). It was odd to see all three brands rolling off the line and being shuttled around, and other than a bit of trim, all three were virtually identical.

 

[eljefino]

Back in the 70s GM cars shared platforms but had different chrome and trim, and different engines.

The Olds/ Buick engines, while 350 cubic inches like the chevy, had different bore/ stroke, distributor on the other end, more nickel in the alloy, a different bellhousing arrangement, etc.

Then in 1976 (ish) GM was short on olds motors so they dumped chevy 350s in. Some guy sued and won and there was a big bruhaha. If you look at a GM print ad from the early 80's there's fine print that you might get an engine from any of GM's buddies.

This continued through the 80's, if you got a caprice wagon it had an olds 307 b/c wagons were made in a different plant.

The caddy northstar was about the end of the engine belonging to a particular branch scheme.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Oldsmobile and Buick traditionally both held a mid-level luxury position, but it seems that beginning in the 1980s, they moved Oldsmobile to more of an "import-fighter" position. You saw such Euro-inspired vehicles as the Trofeo and, one of my favorites, the Touring Sedan.

And then into the 1990s, you had cars like the Aurora, which generally had no other GM equal at the time of their introduction (though the Cadillac Seville line would move to that G-chassis platform in 1998). The 2-door Buick Riviera also used this chassis. The Intrigue, while in reality a badge-engineered W-body car (Pontiac Grand Prix, etc), was really set apart from the rest of the GM crowd and pioneered things new to domestic brands at the time, like clear-lens "jeweled" exterior lamp designs. It also featured an exclusive powertrain option, the 3.5L LX5 "Shortstar" V-6. The Intrigue also offered 12" front brakes as part of an Autobahn package. Of the W-bodies offered at the time, the Intrigue was my favorite by far.

My first car was an Oldsmobile (an '84 Cutlass), and I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the brand.


^^I LOVE that Olds in the pic!! If I came across a clean low mileage one,I'd be all over it!! That was my favorite bodystyle. Is that a 98 Regency? I had an 87 Trofeo and it was one of my favorite cars.

 

[Kestas]

A long time ago different brands under the same umbrella had some distinction. With time, the independant dealers for the different divisions got jealous and didn't like the fact that they couldn't sometimes offer the customer what the other dealers could offer. So the manufacturers started multibadging models to allow each dealer a full line-up of vehicles that the company has to offer.

That's why I'm glad to see certain names disappear - like Oldsmobile, Plymouth, and Mercury. They're only names with no meaning anymore. Why complicate things within a company, which brings no value to the product, and brings needless complexity and expense to the company... just to maintain a name?

 

[nepadriver]

That Olds body is similar to the 86 Buick Park Avenue...great car in that era of mostly [censored] American sedans.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: nepadriver
That Olds body is similar to the 86 Buick Park Avenue...great car in that era of mostly [censored] American sedans.


^^Absolutely!! Great cars!! Some of the best ever made imo. Built like a tank,handled like a sportscar yet luxurious ride,and the Series I 3800 was an amazing engine. My dad's 1990 Delta 88 had over 500,000 miles when he gave it to my nephew a couple years ago. Still going strong to this day.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: earlyre
for the North American "big 3" the order seemed to be from "lowest"
GM:
Chevy/Pontiac (with GMC Being the "Tougher" brother to Chevy's Trucks/vans)



Around 1968, GMC ceased to have its own unique base engine (305 V6). From that point on one could argue that GMC was just a Chevrolet truck that you bought at a Buick, Olds, or Pontiac dealer. Sure, the badge was different and initially they had a different number of headlights, but it was the same truck.

Originally Posted By: earlyre

Ford Probe/ Mazda RX-7/Mazda 626

I think you mean MX-6. RX-7 was always uniquely Mazda.

Probably my favorite is the Buick Opel by Isuzu.

GM couldn't be bothered to name the car. Just put 3 brand names on an Isuzu Gemini and we won't have to change the BUICK/OPEL signs on the dealership when we stop selling German Opels there.

 

[Benzadmiral]

My theory (and it's worth just about what you're paying for it, here) was that GM's five main divisions were intended to serve five different decades of a driver's life.

up to 20s: Chevrolet (School, first job)
30s: Pontiac (A little more muscle, 'cause you got a little more money to spend)
40s: Oldsmobile (You've made it, boy; family car)
50s: Buick (You've worked hard; you've earned something nicer)
60s and beyond: Cadillac (Enjoy your retirement!)

No, I'm sure the bigwigs at GM didn't plan it that way -- and it doesn't explain people who bought an Olds or Pontiac as a first car, or a Caddy in their 30s. But it sure breaks down awfully coincidentally!

My first Olds, an '89 Cutlass coupe, had the same lovely but hard to clean wheels as the Olds Touring Sedan, above.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Back in the 70s GM cars shared platforms but had different chrome and trim, and different engines.

The Olds/ Buick engines, while 350 cubic inches like the chevy, had different bore/ stroke, distributor on the other end, more nickel in the alloy, a different bellhousing arrangement, etc.

Then in 1976 (ish) GM was short on olds motors so they dumped chevy 350s in. Some guy sued and won and there was a big bruhaha. If you look at a GM print ad from the early 80's there's fine print that you might get an engine from any of GM's buddies.

This continued through the 80's, if you got a caprice wagon it had an olds 307 b/c wagons were made in a different plant.

The caddy northstar was about the end of the engine belonging to a particular branch scheme.


That seems crazy!
Were the 350ci Olds/Buick Better than the 350ci Chev?
I have not heard such.
Is there much cross-over with parts?

I understand Ford made Two 351ci's the Windsor and the Cleavland, and one seems to be preferred to the other.
That seems Nuts too!

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Back in the 70s GM cars shared platforms but had different chrome and trim, and different engines.

The Olds/ Buick engines, while 350 cubic inches like the chevy, had different bore/ stroke, distributor on the other end, more nickel in the alloy, a different bellhousing arrangement, etc.

Then in 1976 (ish) GM was short on olds motors so they dumped chevy 350s in. Some guy sued and won and there was a big bruhaha. If you look at a GM print ad from the early 80's there's fine print that you might get an engine from any of GM's buddies.

This continued through the 80's, if you got a caprice wagon it had an olds 307 b/c wagons were made in a different plant.

The caddy northstar was about the end of the engine belonging to a particular branch scheme.


That seems crazy!
Were the 350ci Olds/Buick Better than the 350ci Chev?
I have not heard such.
Is there much cross-over with parts?

I understand Ford made Two 351ci's the Windsor and the Cleavland, and one seems to be preferred to the other.
That seems Nuts too!


The Pontiac 350 (all the Pontiac V8s) sounded good. I think it's in the intake arrangement.
The Buick 350 may have had the most power potential and had most of the components incorporated into the timing cover on the front of the engine. High nickel content, deep skirted block...It's a nice engine.
The Oldsmobile 350 was the "Rocket 350" even after they painted it GM Corporate blue and took away the "Rocket" sticker from the air cleaner. It had a marketable name and reputation even when it was choked down to 160hp by emissions. It was also Cadillac's 350 (Seville)

There were 3 Ford 351s. Cleveland, Modified, and Windsor....and then there are 2bbl Clevelands, 4bbl Clevelands, Cobrajet Clevelands, Australian Clevelands....and also a 352.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Back in the 70s GM cars shared platforms but had different chrome and trim, and different engines.

The Olds/ Buick engines, while 350 cubic inches like the chevy, had different bore/ stroke, distributor on the other end, more nickel in the alloy, a different bellhousing arrangement, etc.

Then in 1976 (ish) GM was short on olds motors so they dumped chevy 350s in. Some guy sued and won and there was a big bruhaha. If you look at a GM print ad from the early 80's there's fine print that you might get an engine from any of GM's buddies.

This continued through the 80's, if you got a caprice wagon it had an olds 307 b/c wagons were made in a different plant.

The caddy northstar was about the end of the engine belonging to a particular branch scheme.


That seems crazy!
Were the 350ci Olds/Buick Better than the 350ci Chev?
I have not heard such.
Is there much cross-over with parts?

I understand Ford made Two 351ci's the Windsor and the Cleavland, and one seems to be preferred to the other.
That seems Nuts too!

One is preferable to the other because the 351W has a wedge cylinder head, and the 351C has a canted valve head. In certain situations, a canted valve head has a power advantage over a wedge head.

Also, I think there was a 351M engine, but I don't know anything about it.

 

[1345]

I just sold my 1988 Oldsmobile touring sedan just like the one in the picture same color and everything. It had a self leveling suspension with a little air compressor under the hood that turned on and off automatically, The rear view mirror tinted if a car was behind you. The lights turned on and off automatically. It had the best ash treys with lighters in all of them. My parents bought it new.