Air France A350 tail strike/Go-Around CYYZ , Toronto.

Just a civilian pilot

Just a civilian pilot

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From The Aviation Herald.

Same runway they went off during the thunderstorm several years ago ( 9000 feet long ).

Winds were not an issue.

Accident: France A359 at Toronto on Jan 21st 2024, tail strike on landing/go around
By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Jan 22nd 2024 11:18Z, last updated Monday, Jan 22nd 2024 11:26Z

An Air France Airbus A350-900, registration F-HTYH performing flight AF-356 from Paris Charles de Gaulle (France) to Toronto,ON (Canada), was landing on Toronto's runway 24L when the aircraft bounced, increased the pitch and contacted the runway surface with its tail before climbing out to safety. The aircraft positioned for another approach to runway 24L about 15 minutes later, landed without further incident and taxied to the apron. There were no injuries, the aircraft sustained substantial damage however.

Metars:
CYYZ 212300Z 26010KT 15SM FEW030 FEW170 M05/M10 A3047 RMK SC1AC1 SC TR AC TR SLP333=
CYYZ 212200Z 26009KT 15SM SCT030 SCT170 SCT250 M04/M10 A3047 RMK SC3AC1CI1 CI TR SLP331=
CYYZ 212100Z 25016KT 15SM BKN030 M03/M09 A3046 RMK SC7 SLP328=
CYYZ 212000Z 25011KT 15SM OVC030 M02/M08 A3046 RMK SC8 SLP327=
CYYZ 211900Z 26009KT 15SM BKN030 M02/M09 A3045 RMK SC7 SLP326=
CYYZ 211800Z 24007KT 15SM BKN030 M03/M10 A3046 RMK SC7 SLP329=
CYYZ 211700Z 26007KT 210V270 15SM BKN032 M03/M10 A3048 RMK SC7 SLP335=​

aviationsourcenews.com

Air France A350 suffers tailstrike on landing in Toronto

An Air France A350-900 has suffered damage in a tail strike during landing and go around at Toronto (YYZ) on Sunday January 21.
aviationsourcenews.com aviationsourcenews.com

Don’t push forward, or pull back, after a bounce.

Go around if its a high bounce ( hold the attitude initially ).

Might be a good idea to discuss how to deal with bounce recoveries prior to descent ( even though it’s in the manual or pilots saw it in sim training ).

It’s really important that the PM ( pilot not flying ) call out when getting close to max landing pitch ( 7.5 / 10 degrees A320, 321 ). Once you reach that pitch , stop pulling back, or do a go around.
 
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Curious if they received an automated " long landing" callout, but it looks like they touched down in the touchdown zone.

If you receive a "long landing" auto callout, you are required to do a ( low energy ) GA.

Doing a GA that close to the runway, with thrust at idle, and speed decaying, you have to be careful with pitch if doing a GA.

Busy doing stuff but will take a closer look at that video tonight.
 
We circled de-icing for 5 hours at Pearson years ago … waiting for a blizzard to clear … Not sure YYZ is for this guy …
 
I remember the first time I tried landing an airliner too.......psh.
 
Aerial view of runway, 24L.

9000 feet long. TDZ ( touch down zone ) is 3000 from threshold.

Looks like they touched down at the end of the OTZ ( optimum touchdown zone ) , 2000 feet.

GA was initiated before the end of the TDZ.

1705971525561.png
 
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It’s confirmed - GA due to automated “ long landing” warning.

Listen to the AF tell ATC why they did the GA.

Crazy. Why airlines are requiring pilots to do low energy go arounds well before end of the TDZ is wrong, and its not without risk. The real TPL ( touch down point limit ) is much further down the runway.

They started the GA at the end of the OTZ - 2000 feet.

onemileatatime.com

Air France Airbus A350 Suffers Tail Strike During Toronto Go Around

An Air France Airbus A350 suffered a tail strike during a go around at Toronto Airport, leading to significant damage. Here are the details.
onemileatatime.com onemileatatime.com
 
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Just a civilian pilot said:
It’s confirmed - GA due to automated “ long landing” warning.

Listen to the AF tell ATC why they did the GA.

Crazy. Why airlines are requiring pilots to do low energy go arounds well before end of the TDZ is wrong, and its not without risk. The real TPL ( touch down point limit ) is much further down the runway.

They started the GA at the end of the OTZ - 2000 feet.

onemileatatime.com

Air France Airbus A350 Suffers Tail Strike During Toronto Go Around

An Air France Airbus A350 suffered a tail strike during a go around at Toronto Airport, leading to significant damage. Here are the details.
onemileatatime.com onemileatatime.com
Click to expand...
Would you briefly explain "low energy" go around please? Is it basically that you're low and slow after floating down the runway, losing energy?
 
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The_Eric said:
Would you briefly explain "low energy" go around please? Is it basically that you're low and slow after floating down the runway, loosing energy?
Click to expand...
A low energy GA is when the pilot decides , for whatever reason, to GO around after the power is at idle, landing gear down, full flaps , airspeed is decreasing , and very close to the runway ( that’s why the power was at idle ). The main wheels can touch the runway during a low energy GA and Airbus warns pilots not to pull the nose up too much until proper airspeed ( whatever the landing speed was ) is achieved.

Very few pilots have done a real low energy GA.

The main reasons for doing a low energy Ga are : high bounce or floating too far down the runway and reach the TPL ( touchdown point limit ).

TPL is automated in some aircraft , or it’s reached visually ( when the pilot monitoring sees the aircraft floating towards the end of the touch down zone , usually 3000 at big airports ). The pilot monitoring would call “ floating” before it reaches the TPL, then the call is “ unstable”, and the pilot flying initiates a low energy GA .

A normal GA is initiated normally no lower than landing minimums ( 200 feet above the runway …..GA because do not see runway at minimums in certain weather like low ceiling or vis ) and the aircraft has lots of energy due to power being well above idle , and flying at final approach airspeed ( lots of energy ).
 
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Just a civilian pilot said:
It’s confirmed - GA due to automated “ long landing” warning.

Listen to the AF tell ATC why they did the GA.

Crazy. Why airlines are requiring pilots to do low energy go arounds well before end of the TDZ is wrong, and its not without risk. The real TPL ( touch down point limit ) is much further down the runway.

They started the GA at the end of the OTZ - 2000 feet.

onemileatatime.com

Air France Airbus A350 Suffers Tail Strike During Toronto Go Around

An Air France Airbus A350 suffered a tail strike during a go around at Toronto Airport, leading to significant damage. Here are the details.
onemileatatime.com onemileatatime.com
Click to expand...
What you're saying here is that the pilot could have potentially stuck the landing, but was required by company policy to go around and then got in trouble because he was so low and slow?
 
I'm impressed the plane could take off so easily again, after landing, then doing a tail grind, then getting the engines at full power after its back in the air again. Flight aware says it was at 120knts as it was climbing afterwards but I assume that is ground speed. I wonder how close the plane was to stalling?
 
T
The_Eric said:
What you're saying here is that the pilot could have potentially stuck the landing, but was required by company policy to go around and then got in trouble because he was so low and slow?
Click to expand...
The aircraft is certified to do a low energy GA ( but never once reverse thrust is selected ….it might not stow ) but it’s not a normal manoeuvre we do, and many pilots never get any training on how to do one ( or , very rarely ).

On a normal GA, it’s safe to retract the flaps right away ( assuming GO was initiated with landing flap ) but not during a low energy GA. The aircraft needs to build speed before the pilot raises the nose and calls for “ GA, flaps”.

The Airbus call for a low energy GA is : “ Go around, flaps” , even though it’s not safe yet to retract the flaps one setting yet. I don’t like that call but it’s what Airbus wants us to say.

The Airbus can also get into Alpha Floor / TOGA lock following a low energy GA and you have to know how to disarm this low speed safety protection once the aircraft has enough energy, speed is increasing, flaps are retracted ( stuck in TOGA, full thrust. The thrust is locked until you unlock it ).

The pilot ( we don’t have the accident report yet but it’s not often we have video and audio…..we know what happened ) brought the nose up too high , that caused the problem, not the low energy GA itself. That said, they are not without risk if not done properly.

My point is , why do a low energy GA just because of an arbitrary, company limit that is not the real TPL for the actual landing calculations.

Edit: Pilots need to follow company rules/ procedures , even if they don’t make sense at times.
 
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IndyIan said:
I'm impressed the plane could take off so easily again, after landing, then doing a tail grind, then getting the engines at full power after its back in the air again. Flight aware says it was at 120knts as it was climbing afterwards but I assume that is ground speed. I wonder how close the plane was to stalling?
Click to expand...
120 knots would be ground speed.
 
Just a civilian pilot said:
Why you never do a GA ( on the runway is when it’s selected, never in the air ) after reverse thrust is selected.

Crash of a Boeing 737-275 in Cranbrook: 42 killed | Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives

www.baaa-acro.com www.baaa-acro.com
Click to expand...
Jake Plett, one of the passengers who perished in this crash, had written a book, Valley of Shadows, about coping with the abduction and murder of his wife a few years before.

It is strange to think of the author surviving this horrible experience, and then dying in an aircraft disaster just a few years later.
 
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