Air crash of the past

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This was sad. I like these planes but, this incident proves there can be some not so good mechanics working on aircraft, and some not so good engineering as well. I say with this example, what ever happened to redundancy for aircraft systems? There was no excuse for this to happen. I remember it on the news years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ewehd9b0_o Yes its an animation but covers well what transpired on that flight. The poor passengers, just horrible. I didn't search this out, its something I just clicked on and watched.
 
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Unfortunately, the knowledge that has led to the safety we enjoy in commercial aviation came at a high price. Those inside and close to the industry, and aviation in general, are familiar with the phrase that the "regulations are written in blood". Maintenance, record keeping, and system redundancies are no different. That's why SMS (Safety Management Systems) play such a crucial role today- we need to be anticipating hazards and risks instead of reacting to the consequences of those hazards and risks.
 
This was caused by Alaska Airlines having a tier 3 maintenance program. Tier 3 maintenance was a cost saving plan. The video understates Capt. Thompson's heroic efforts. Although cleared to land at LAX, he chose to verify the plane's airworthiness by remaining over the ocean. He knew the risk of flying over a populated area was too large at that moment. Scott
 
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Originally Posted by edwardh1
I dont like maintenance sent to foreign countries to save money
However in this case good old USA maintenance was a complete fail.
 
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Originally Posted by madRiver
Originally Posted by edwardh1
I dont like maintenance sent to foreign countries to save money
However in this case good old USA maintenance was a complete fail.
Not only that, but industry wide, there's a lot of maintenance done oversees today and we are enjoying possibly the safest time in aviation history.
 
Originally Posted by JustN89
Originally Posted by madRiver
Originally Posted by edwardh1
I dont like maintenance sent to foreign countries to save money
However in this case good old USA maintenance was a complete fail.
Not only that, but industry wide, there's a lot of maintenance done oversees today and we are enjoying possibly the safest time in aviation history.
One of my good friends is a retired airline Captain from one of the major domestic airlines. About 15 years ago he was flying a 737 out of LAX. While he and the First Officer were doing their pre-flight stuff, they noticed a maintenance crew thrashing wildly on the starboard engine. The engine cowlings were open and wrenches were being turn fast and furious. He sent his first officer down to find out what was being done. He returned several minutes later and told my good friend (the Captain) that he couldn't get an answer because no one spoke English. You'd have to know my friend to understand, but this was totally unacceptable to him and he went down there himself to get answers. Indeed, no one spoke English. Somehow he got them to get their supervisor to come over and discuss. Problem was the supervisor didn't speak English either! What did my airline Captain friend do? He refused to fly the plane and the flight was canceled. The maintenance union filed a grievance against him and my airline Captain friend was reprimanded. Was he right or wrong? Scott PS As an aside, my friend was airborne during the 911 attacks. Without explanation they were ordered to land immediately, landing at a small airport in Oregon (not their destination). He said it was the most bizarre thing he ever experienced in his entire career. The flight crew was stuck there for 2 or 3 days IIRC.
 

Kestas

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Speaking of maintenance short cuts, that is what took down the DC-10 at O'Hare airport. An engine fell off the plane during takeoff because of short cuts the mechanics took to install the engine.
 
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Someone on the crew knew English. Any work done on an aircraft must be written up, in English.
 

Astro14

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I don't troubleshoot in the air any more. Not since I have passengers counting on me and don't have an ejection seat. Fiddling with the trim and jackscrew ultimately caused the failure that caused the crash. Something breaks: you get the airplane as safely configured as you can and then... LEAVE IT ALONE. Let the techs on the ground troubleshoot further. This Captain failed by continuing to troubleshoot a broken and failing system.
 
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And just wow with some of the foreign mechanics, and here we have restrictive hours of supposed learning for A&P's, and most of them are not qualified to work on commercial planes at graduation, I've read many articles on the subject. If thats the case here can you imagine what it is in other country's? In the link, the comments are interesting, one guy hit it right on. That jack screw problem started on the engineering drawing board. No way should that not have stops to prevent out of range motion, and not be able to be over ridden by the pilots control yoke. Then if it wasn't a stripped nut, what if it was a locked up gear case or burnt up electric motor, the same crash would have happened with that too if an extreme defection was involved. That whole deal is just plane bad engineering as well as a maintenance issue. And that other link posted above flight 529, it was caused by a broken prop blade that was incorrectly fixed by the manufacture, so I just find it weird about the AP requirements in the US and how even the manufacture can't do a job right. I think one of the main problems is the aviation mechanic deal is to broad spectrum, There needs to be more specializing in aviation mechanics, its just too much mental overload to be capable of knowing everything there is about a modern plane.
 
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Too much P (Parker) -51 time .(Before the advent of the ball point, the Parker 51 ink pen was considered the Cadillac of fountain pens), thus the term used to "pencil whip" maintenance checks . In grade school, one or two kids had nice Parker 51 pens while the rest of us had second or third hand Esterbrooks.
 
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Originally Posted by Kestas
Speaking of maintenance short cuts, that is what took down the DC-10 at O'Hare airport. An engine fell off the plane during takeoff because of short cuts the mechanics took to install the engine.
Also design blunders by McDonnell-Douglas. If the DC-10 had incorporated hydraulic fuses, the crash wouldn't have happened.
 

Astro14

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Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by Kestas
Speaking of maintenance short cuts, that is what took down the DC-10 at O'Hare airport. An engine fell off the plane during takeoff because of short cuts the mechanics took to install the engine.
Also design blunders by McDonnell-Douglas. If the DC-10 had incorporated hydraulic fuses, the crash wouldn't have happened.
Different crashes. The American DC-10 that crashed in Chicago was the result of fractured engine mount bolts. The engine was hung with a forklift (maintenance malpractice), and that damaged the mounting bolts, which failed during takeoff, resulting in the loss of an engine, hydraulic failure, and airframe damage, including loss of slats, from the engine impacting the wing. The crew had no chance. The United DC-10 (United 232) had a no.2 (tail) engine failure that damaged the tail and took out a hydraulic junction, resulting in the loss of all hydraulics, all flight controls. The crew had no chance. And yet, in one of the finest moments in aviation, Al Haynes, the Captain, aided by several, including Denny Fitch, another United Captain, managed to fly it to Sioux City, Iowa put it down on the runway there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 I've never heard of "hydraulic fuses" - and while they sound good, they wouldn't have helped the American DC-10, which lost slat control, or the United DC-10, which had the hydraulics fail in the rudder. If you were to "fuse" a hydraulic system, to close off parts of it, the rudder would be among the top priority parts of the hydraulic system, and would continue to receive fluid...and bleed out anyway...
 
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Originally Posted by Astro14
I've never heard of "hydraulic fuses" ...
They are also known as "velocity" or "hose break" fuses. I've seen them on the lower port of presses and feeding hoses on tractor type things. The major manufacturers make them, Parker, Eaton, Hydac among the majors. The same technology, but designed for frequent use, is used in air bleed valves to purge air on machine startups.
 
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Having important things like control surfaces operating on hydraulics is just plain stupid. Can you imagine a B-17 in the war days filled with holes, many that flew back to their bases with major parts missing, if they would have had hydraulic controls the tiniest of leaks would have doomed them. All important systems like controls should be triple redundant, hydraulic okay but then back it up with mechanical. Just like the jack screw, it needed 2 of them and a fail safe blocking system, and then a couple of come alongs and attach points so someone could crawl in there and manually adjust the position to get to the nearest base. I suppose strong springs to center the stabilizer would be a good idea as well.
 

Astro14

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Without hydraulics, you wouldn't have airplanes over 50 passengers. Or airplanes that could cross an ocean. And air travel would still cost as much as a new car. But airplanes have improved since WW II, allowing bigger, faster, machines that cost less to operate. DC-10 had three hydraulic systems. Triple redundant. But the blades from the engine on United 232 cut through all three systems. The rudder, like ailerons, and elevators, has triple redundancy. So, all three systems were routed near the engine, and all three were damaged.
 
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