I had a friend who had a Monte Carlo and it costed him nearly $1000 to change the spark plugs because they had to remove the engine to get to them, IIRC. Yikes! I can change my plugs myself very easily in my car, I like having them right on top of the motor.
Advantages of a four cylinder?
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No way it'd cost $1000 to replace plugs on a GM 3.4.
Not all four cylinders have easy plug access. Just take the VW 2.0 for instance. The plugs are covered by the manifold. Injector wiring has to be removed to gain access. Flat rate must be 1hr minimum.
Not all four cylinders have easy plug access. Just take the VW 2.0 for instance. The plugs are covered by the manifold. Injector wiring has to be removed to gain access. Flat rate must be 1hr minimum.
After looking on the site that was linked in this thread I would have to say the high tech engines didn't fair so well.
Lamborghini Spider 5.0L man 17 mpg
Ferrari GTB 5.9L MAN 15 MPG
PORSCHE TURBO 4 911 TURBO 3.6L AUTO 25 mpg
Hyundai Tiburon 2.7L auto 26 mpg
Corvette 6.0l auto 27 mpg
If you want a sports car with good mileage the 366 cubic inch push rod engine beats the little high winders.
Lamborghini Spider 5.0L man 17 mpg
Ferrari GTB 5.9L MAN 15 MPG
PORSCHE TURBO 4 911 TURBO 3.6L AUTO 25 mpg
Hyundai Tiburon 2.7L auto 26 mpg
Corvette 6.0l auto 27 mpg
If you want a sports car with good mileage the 366 cubic inch push rod engine beats the little high winders.
Well of course if you usually have 3-4 people in a car and/or lot of slopes I4 probably is not going to be powerful enough. Sure. 90% of people use flat highways and streets, maybe single passanger max, often drive alone to work and back. So for the majority I4 is fine ASSUMING no extra weight.
For those occasional trips when you load entire family, a lot of baggage, etc. V6 will be superior. But how often do you do that?
Perception of performance is all over the place. A lot of people have expectations of "instant" pass, approximately something like 10 seconds to pass; well give or take. For that sort of performance no amount of power in a car/SUV is enough, so 200+ hp V6 is perceived to be better.
Now you could rev up I4 and do a 15-20 sec pass, which is usually Ok with some anticipation. Frankly even on my Kawu motorcycle I have to downshift and rev up to get peak HP for a quick pass.
Conversly someone who grew up in Europe on a 1.3L Peugot will be convinced that a 2L or 2.4L Mazda I4 is a speed monster and could not even imagine anything more. Hey I moved from a Yugo to a 1.5L Civic and thought it is real fast
So it is a matter of perception. At some point you have to draw a line and say this is enough. Some people draw the line at 2.xL I4, many others keep going to 200+ hp V6. What I find odd is that many people just don't want to draw any lines. Why not 5L V8. Oh, I do REALLY need a pickup for .... (fill in a made up excuse) If they had money they'd just keep going to say Jaguar V10 or whatever they have.
I prefer to get a vehicle that will perform well for 80% of my driving and don't worry about extreme cases. I can always rent a V6 for long trips or whatever.
As for performance/speed, I just hop on the Kawi bike. Much easier that way.
P.S.: Don't get me started on the spark plugs. All my I4s are fantastic, pleasure to change them. However, Kawi Ninja has fuel tank on top of air filter on top of cylinders. Yep, gotta remove fuel tank and air filter box just to change plugs
Well at least they are light and easy to remove.
For those occasional trips when you load entire family, a lot of baggage, etc. V6 will be superior. But how often do you do that?
Perception of performance is all over the place. A lot of people have expectations of "instant" pass, approximately something like 10 seconds to pass; well give or take. For that sort of performance no amount of power in a car/SUV is enough, so 200+ hp V6 is perceived to be better.
Now you could rev up I4 and do a 15-20 sec pass, which is usually Ok with some anticipation. Frankly even on my Kawu motorcycle I have to downshift and rev up to get peak HP for a quick pass.
Conversly someone who grew up in Europe on a 1.3L Peugot will be convinced that a 2L or 2.4L Mazda I4 is a speed monster and could not even imagine anything more. Hey I moved from a Yugo to a 1.5L Civic and thought it is real fast
So it is a matter of perception. At some point you have to draw a line and say this is enough. Some people draw the line at 2.xL I4, many others keep going to 200+ hp V6. What I find odd is that many people just don't want to draw any lines. Why not 5L V8. Oh, I do REALLY need a pickup for .... (fill in a made up excuse) If they had money they'd just keep going to say Jaguar V10 or whatever they have.
I prefer to get a vehicle that will perform well for 80% of my driving and don't worry about extreme cases. I can always rent a V6 for long trips or whatever.
As for performance/speed, I just hop on the Kawi bike. Much easier that way.
P.S.: Don't get me started on the spark plugs. All my I4s are fantastic, pleasure to change them. However, Kawi Ninja has fuel tank on top of air filter on top of cylinders. Yep, gotta remove fuel tank and air filter box just to change plugs
Well at least they are light and easy to remove.I find the fueleconomy.org website to be off-base even moreso than the old MPG numbers.
96 Saturn SL2, 5 speed:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=12780
I must be doing something very wrong as the last tank of gas was 42MPG and the last 15 tankfuls about 38.5MPG! What can I do to decrease this car's mileage to be more inline with the EPA's numbers??
Advantages of a 4cyl: fuel mileage!
96 Saturn SL2, 5 speed:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=12780
I must be doing something very wrong as the last tank of gas was 42MPG and the last 15 tankfuls about 38.5MPG! What can I do to decrease this car's mileage to be more inline with the EPA's numbers??
Advantages of a 4cyl: fuel mileage!
My real-world experience is as follows. My driving style was roughly the same and so is the city/highway mix.
From worst to best mileage:
Ford Contour V6 MTX ~21
Dodge Shadow 2.2 Auto ~23
Pontiac Grand Prix 3.8 Supercharged ~23
Dodge Spirit V6 3-Speed Auto ~25
The contour was a great car, but the mileage was pretty terrible. I think that's because its final drive was relatively high, while I think the Grand Prix gets such good (relative) mileage is its low gearing. It's rolling at 2000 rpm @ 70 mph.
From worst to best mileage:
Ford Contour V6 MTX ~21
Dodge Shadow 2.2 Auto ~23
Pontiac Grand Prix 3.8 Supercharged ~23
Dodge Spirit V6 3-Speed Auto ~25
The contour was a great car, but the mileage was pretty terrible. I think that's because its final drive was relatively high, while I think the Grand Prix gets such good (relative) mileage is its low gearing. It's rolling at 2000 rpm @ 70 mph.
pushrod engines are the way to go, I have for years worked on both.
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I find the fueleconomy.org website to be off-base even moreso than the old MPG numbers.
96 Saturn SL2, 5 speed:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=12780
I must be doing something very wrong as the last tank of gas was 42MPG and the last 15 tankfuls about 38.5MPG! What can I do to decrease this car's mileage to be more inline with the EPA's numbers??
Advantages of a 4cyl: fuel mileage!
My truck is the same way. It can easily better its EPA highway rating by 5 MPG, and that is with 85,000 miles and all of the original sensors and whatnot (only filters and fluids have been changed).
Abuse the v6 and MPG will drop much quicker then beating on the 4cyl. Basically, you need to be a more mature driver with a V6 to get that mileage.
4cyl also has a manual option. 4cyl can be had with hybrid assistance.
I've visited Toyota dealers. Can you actually find a modestly equipped V6?
The 2.4L Camries that I've driven had plenty of power for almost all situations. I wouldn't want to tow with it. And, racing up Pikes Peak would be no fun.
With the cost of gasoline going up every year, even a minimal MPG increase is noticeable when gas funds compete with food, mortgage, utilities, kid$, IRA, 401k.........
Critic, when you leave the nest, you'll understand that for some people, 1/10 of an MPG is important.
Power sells cars. There must be a surplus of people with small
in this country
4cyl also has a manual option. 4cyl can be had with hybrid assistance.
I've visited Toyota dealers. Can you actually find a modestly equipped V6?
The 2.4L Camries that I've driven had plenty of power for almost all situations. I wouldn't want to tow with it. And, racing up Pikes Peak would be no fun.
With the cost of gasoline going up every year, even a minimal MPG increase is noticeable when gas funds compete with food, mortgage, utilities, kid$, IRA, 401k.........
Critic, when you leave the nest, you'll understand that for some people, 1/10 of an MPG is important.
Power sells cars. There must be a surplus of people with small
That engine is a 8V SOHC engine, not too hard to change if you have the right tool. I think most DOHC engines have the park plugs on top.
As for parts, of course you don't need to spend as much for spark plugs and wires because its fewer. V6 might be harder to work on because of limited space. Another advantage is 4 cylinders is more compact so doesn't need a large front.
Most people buy 4 cylinder because it gets good gas mileage. I'm sure if you put a 4 cylinder in a large SUV it wouldn't be very efficient. But little 4 cylinder engines run at higher rpm than a larger 6 or 8 cylinder. On the freeway my VW 2.0 does about 3000 rpm at 65-75mph. My dad's Camry 2.2L 5SFE does about 2200rpm at a similar speed. Getting on the freeway I try not to floor it to get on the on ramp so it will gradually accelerate. I drove a GM 3.8L V6 and what a big difference compared to 4 cylinders. It feels like it doesn't work as hard on the freeway.
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Yeah, it was a bit more challenging than my DOHC Saturn to change the plugs on.
3000rpm is a lot, no wonder the VW 2.0 only gets so-so economy. As a comparison, the Toyota 3.5L V6 runs at 1900rpm at 70mph due to the 6-speed automatic.
Forgot to mention for the 01M 4 speed automatics, they have a lock up torque converter. On the freeway I've gotten ~32 mpg.
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That is true. My Ranger has 8 spark plugs. It will be "fun" when the time comes to change the four on the intake manifold side.
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3000rpm is a lot, no wonder the VW 2.0 only gets so-so economy. As a comparison, the Toyota 3.5L V6 runs at 1900rpm at 70mph due to the 6-speed automatic.
I got 37 MPG on the above roadtrip with a 1993 2.0L DOHC with over 200k miles on it. That's why my next car will be a 4cly, too. 3k + RPMs doesn't = bad MPG.
Good point, didn't think about that.
LE V6 model with moonroof package as the only option. Doesn't even have alloy wheels.
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3000rpm is a lot, no wonder the VW 2.0 only gets so-so economy. As a comparison, the Toyota 3.5L V6 runs at 1900rpm at 70mph due to the 6-speed automatic.
I got 37 MPG on the above roadtrip with a 1993 2.0L DOHC with over 200k miles on it. That's why my next car will be a 4cly, too. 3k + RPMs doesn't = bad MPG.
I'll second that. My car ran at over 3k RPMs the entire vacation I just took there and back, and got over EPA estimates both ways. One particular trip where I drove at 65-75 the entire way (around 2.9k-3.4k) I got nearly 36 mpg.
I have a 04 civic EX with 1.7L 4-banger and manual gearbox, it revs 3000 at 60mph, 4000 at 80, and 5000 at 90mph. I took a trip to Seattle, WA from Los Angeles CA. Before trip I put 10w30 Mobile 1 oil with M1 filter. Traveled the whole way at 85+ mph which is 4700-5000rpm constantly, got 32mpg average, and was surprised to see oil clear as new when I came back to LA after almost 3000 mile road trip under those conditions. The car has 60k miles, has zero oil consumption and purrs like a kitten every morning. Also under the valve cover it is incredebly clean. Must have cleaned up after high speed driving
I have also noticed that high rpm doesnt increase fuel consumption as much as load.
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I have a 04 civic EX with 1.7L 4-banger and manual gearbox, it revs 3000 at 60mph, 4000 at 80, and 5000 at 90mph. I took a trip to Seattle, WA from Los Angeles CA. Before trip I put 10w30 Mobile 1 oil with M1 filter. Traveled the whole way at 85+ mph which is 4700-5000rpm constantly, got 32mpg average, and was surprised to see oil clear as new when I came back to LA after almost 3000 mile road trip under those conditions. The car has 60k miles, has zero oil consumption and purrs like a kitten every morning. Also under the valve cover it is incredebly clean. Must have cleaned up after high speed drivingI have also noticed that high rpm doesnt increase fuel consumption as much as load.
Those rpm numbers seem high. I too have an '04 Civic LX 5 speed MT (non V-tec). and at 80mph I turn 3300 RPMs. I have 45000 miles. Is your clutch slipping?
Power to weight is linear. The "happy" spot is when you do not weigh down your available RWHP/RWTQ to the point it struggles to supply you with acceptable power for your driving habits/requirements.
The biggest reason for the 4 is initial purchase price. It's usually a $1500 upgrade. That 4 is plenty strong for safe and comfortable motoring. Buy the six if you want more power and don't mind spending the dough.
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