It helped when motor oil was non detergent. Today's oils have more detergent than atf does.
Adding Tranny Fluid in Before Oil change to clean?
- Thread starter jgscott
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Originally Posted By: jgscott
Guess i've been making a mistake for 258k.
I'd say so, yes. I've never used any sort of flush or additive including ATF in the miles I have on my vehicles, including my bad reputation 1MZ-FE. I've done several valve cover and oil pan gasket changes on all of them except the ECHO and they are fine inside.
Guess i've been making a mistake for 258k.
I'd say so, yes. I've never used any sort of flush or additive including ATF in the miles I have on my vehicles, including my bad reputation 1MZ-FE. I've done several valve cover and oil pan gasket changes on all of them except the ECHO and they are fine inside.
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
You have it backwards. Show me the data that says that the transmission fluid helps. Evidence of many other cars that make it to high mileage without it would indicate it's not needed.
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
You have it backwards. Show me the data that says that the transmission fluid helps. Evidence of many other cars that make it to high mileage without it would indicate it's not needed.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
Here's something to try: pick your favorite oil company (or more than one) and call their tech line. Ask them about the level of detergents in ATF compared to SN-rated oil. That way, you're getting the official word from them and not us.
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
Here's something to try: pick your favorite oil company (or more than one) and call their tech line. Ask them about the level of detergents in ATF compared to SN-rated oil. That way, you're getting the official word from them and not us.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: jgscott
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
You have it backwards. Show me the data that says that the transmission fluid helps. Evidence of many other cars that make it to high mileage without it would indicate it's not needed.
Nice spin, but...... I asked 1st.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
You have it backwards. Show me the data that says that the transmission fluid helps. Evidence of many other cars that make it to high mileage without it would indicate it's not needed.
Nice spin, but...... I asked 1st.
Originally Posted By: zrxkawboy
Originally Posted By: jgscott
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
Here's something to try: pick your favorite oil company (or more than one) and call their tech line. Ask them about the level of detergents in ATF compared to SN-rated oil. That way, you're getting the official word from them and not us.
That would be like them asking if their oil is better than someone else's oil comparing apples to apples. Gas Companies claim their fuels clean better that the other Guys, but there are gas additives that do clean and work.
Still waiting on some Science or data to support and prove me wrong.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
Here's something to try: pick your favorite oil company (or more than one) and call their tech line. Ask them about the level of detergents in ATF compared to SN-rated oil. That way, you're getting the official word from them and not us.
That would be like them asking if their oil is better than someone else's oil comparing apples to apples. Gas Companies claim their fuels clean better that the other Guys, but there are gas additives that do clean and work.
Still waiting on some Science or data to support and prove me wrong.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
Nice spin, but...... I asked 1st.
When one posits that a product will work in ways not intended, it's incumbent upon that person to provide the evidence. Note that there are many VOAs and UOAs here, in addition to formulators, including formulators of transmission fluids. The analyses are pretty clear, and the formulators will tell you the same thing. Ask Whitewolf or Mola.
Nice spin, but...... I asked 1st.
When one posits that a product will work in ways not intended, it's incumbent upon that person to provide the evidence. Note that there are many VOAs and UOAs here, in addition to formulators, including formulators of transmission fluids. The analyses are pretty clear, and the formulators will tell you the same thing. Ask Whitewolf or Mola.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: jgscott
Nice spin, but...... I asked 1st.
When one posits that a product will work in ways not intended, it's incumbent upon that person to provide the evidence. Note that there are many VOAs and UOAs here, in addition to formulators, including formulators of transmission fluids. The analyses are pretty clear, and the formulators will tell you the same thing. Ask Whitewolf or Mola.
I provided my personal actaul results in the 1st post of the thread.
I understand all that you and others are saying. I'm just asking for proof/fact, data, or science of the counter post is all? Think thats a fair rebuttal on my part. It's not like I'm talking about put window washer fluid in the engine oil. Nor is this the 1st time anyone has done it. There's talk out there that even MMO contains or is Tranny Fluid and smells like it too. Ok let's not go off track about MMO tho.
Still waiting on some real info to content my experience, and application or back up the counter post to prove me wrong. I appreciate all the posts, even including the insults without and lacking their own facts facts.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
Nice spin, but...... I asked 1st.
When one posits that a product will work in ways not intended, it's incumbent upon that person to provide the evidence. Note that there are many VOAs and UOAs here, in addition to formulators, including formulators of transmission fluids. The analyses are pretty clear, and the formulators will tell you the same thing. Ask Whitewolf or Mola.
I provided my personal actaul results in the 1st post of the thread.
I understand all that you and others are saying. I'm just asking for proof/fact, data, or science of the counter post is all? Think thats a fair rebuttal on my part. It's not like I'm talking about put window washer fluid in the engine oil. Nor is this the 1st time anyone has done it. There's talk out there that even MMO contains or is Tranny Fluid and smells like it too. Ok let's not go off track about MMO tho.
Still waiting on some real info to content my experience, and application or back up the counter post to prove me wrong. I appreciate all the posts, even including the insults without and lacking their own facts facts.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: jgscott
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
And where are your data to back up your assertions to the contrary?
BTW, this topic has been beaten to death many times but here it is again:
In the early days of ATF when it contained an ester called, "Sperm Whale Oil," and a naphthenic base oil, motor oils at the same time had little or no detergency additive.
When added to the poor Group I mineral base oil it did do some cleaning because it 1) was thinner than the old motor oil, 2) the naphthenic base oil and Sperm Whale Oil made a good cleaner.
Today's ATF has only 4.2% of the detergency as do current motor oils and little to no naphthenics. Saying it differently, current Motor Oils average 24 times the detergency of current ATF's.
Naphthenic base oils have poor Viscosity Indices and tend to oxidize quicker than do Group II through IV base oils, which is why Naphthenics are rarely used, except as "solvers," and only in very low amounts.
Naphthenics HAD to be used back then in ATF's in order to bring the Sperm Whale OIL into solution.
I'll content that no one posted here has any real data to say yes or no either way. Don't mean to stir up a Hornets Nest, but link me to some data on the Trans added being bad or a waste of time? Not to how good oil is today but..... Trans adding being what ever comment you made against it. Bust the myth with some facts.
And.... Transmission fluid does have cleaning agents for the Valve bodies to not stick up/clog if I am correct. Not saying it works in the oil or does not work, but lots of opinions here.
And where are your data to back up your assertions to the contrary?
BTW, this topic has been beaten to death many times but here it is again:
In the early days of ATF when it contained an ester called, "Sperm Whale Oil," and a naphthenic base oil, motor oils at the same time had little or no detergency additive.
When added to the poor Group I mineral base oil it did do some cleaning because it 1) was thinner than the old motor oil, 2) the naphthenic base oil and Sperm Whale Oil made a good cleaner.
Today's ATF has only 4.2% of the detergency as do current motor oils and little to no naphthenics. Saying it differently, current Motor Oils average 24 times the detergency of current ATF's.
Naphthenic base oils have poor Viscosity Indices and tend to oxidize quicker than do Group II through IV base oils, which is why Naphthenics are rarely used, except as "solvers," and only in very low amounts.
Naphthenics HAD to be used back then in ATF's in order to bring the Sperm Whale OIL into solution.
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MolaKule
Staff member
Furthermore (Time-Out got me) today's Synthenic ATF's contain less than 5% of any type of ester and average about 1%, depending on the formulation.
Sperm Whale Oil was actually the "Liquid Waxy Ester" derived from the spermaceti organ of the Whale's head.
Liquid Wax Esters today are synthesized (reacted) using bio-acids and selected alcohols.
Sperm Whale Oil was actually the "Liquid Waxy Ester" derived from the spermaceti organ of the Whale's head.
Liquid Wax Esters today are synthesized (reacted) using bio-acids and selected alcohols.
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Originally Posted By: jgscott
Still waiting on some real info to content my experience, and application or back up the counter post to prove me wrong. I appreciate all the posts, even including the insults without and lacking their own facts facts.
There you go. Mola, a formulator, replied. Now, you did receive real data all along. Mola provided some extra chemistry and historical context. As I mentioned, there's data all over the board.
Yes, you said what you experienced, but you really didn't experience much of anything. You did it, but had no evidence of benefit or harm.
Think about it, even from a logical perspective, let alone what a formulator here will tell you. Why would there be more useful detergents for an internal combustion engine in an ATF than in a fully formulated motor oil? Why would the useful detergents not be in the motor oil in the first place?
Still waiting on some real info to content my experience, and application or back up the counter post to prove me wrong. I appreciate all the posts, even including the insults without and lacking their own facts facts.
There you go. Mola, a formulator, replied. Now, you did receive real data all along. Mola provided some extra chemistry and historical context. As I mentioned, there's data all over the board.
Yes, you said what you experienced, but you really didn't experience much of anything. You did it, but had no evidence of benefit or harm.
Think about it, even from a logical perspective, let alone what a formulator here will tell you. Why would there be more useful detergents for an internal combustion engine in an ATF than in a fully formulated motor oil? Why would the useful detergents not be in the motor oil in the first place?
This is a classic example of people thinking that a 'trick' they are doing or performing a 'special' treatment that they came up with is helping the engine, but in reality it's just proving how resilient to user error a modern, otherwise well maintained engine can be.
Originally Posted By: TurboTravis
This is a classic example of people thinking that a 'trick' they are doing or performing a 'special' treatment that they came up with is helping the engine, but in reality it's just proving how resilient to user error a modern, otherwise well maintained engine can be.
And the super classic "prove to me that it doesn't work" theory. In science and in life, you have to provide proof to prove a theory. Otherwise you could accuse everyone of murder and it's up to them to prove that they didn't do it.
One landlord told me that when he was evicting a tenant, the tenant tried to say that it was up to the landlord to prove that he didn't pay. The judge didn't buy it.
This is a classic example of people thinking that a 'trick' they are doing or performing a 'special' treatment that they came up with is helping the engine, but in reality it's just proving how resilient to user error a modern, otherwise well maintained engine can be.
And the super classic "prove to me that it doesn't work" theory. In science and in life, you have to provide proof to prove a theory. Otherwise you could accuse everyone of murder and it's up to them to prove that they didn't do it.
One landlord told me that when he was evicting a tenant, the tenant tried to say that it was up to the landlord to prove that he didn't pay. The judge didn't buy it.
LOL!
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theory
I didn't see anyone else post that they, use/used Trans Fluid in their Oil?
I did post that I had actually performed, not just "Theorized". And........ I'm not talking about back when trans fluid had................ I mentioned the exact time frame I performed.
And I have basically the same You did it, but had no evidence of benefit or harm as other posters here. The difference is, "I have", responders not saying they have, or have not.
Its actually like one say they can run the 40 yards dash in x.x seconds, or no need to run it because they can beat everyone else, and running is a waste of time because. blah, blah, blah, blah. But never run it, or state when they did? At least I can say I ran the 40 yard dash, and made it past the finish line with no problems and believe I experienced. That's just the facts I see here reading into the actual facts, cutting out the difference in theories.
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theory
I didn't see anyone else post that they, use/used Trans Fluid in their Oil?
I did post that I had actually performed, not just "Theorized". And........ I'm not talking about back when trans fluid had................ I mentioned the exact time frame I performed.
And I have basically the same You did it, but had no evidence of benefit or harm as other posters here. The difference is, "I have", responders not saying they have, or have not.
Its actually like one say they can run the 40 yards dash in x.x seconds, or no need to run it because they can beat everyone else, and running is a waste of time because. blah, blah, blah, blah. But never run it, or state when they did? At least I can say I ran the 40 yard dash, and made it past the finish line with no problems and believe I experienced. That's just the facts I see here reading into the actual facts, cutting out the difference in theories.
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
Originally Posted By: jgscott
Let me sum it up please:
Nah, let me sum it up as others have already done. You got your answer.
Let me sum it up please:
Nah, let me sum it up as others have already done. You got your answer.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
LOL!
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
Wow, you're off to a great start here on BITOG..
Having said that, you're off the mark here. Molakule knows his stuff, has tons of real-world experience, knows the underlying scientific data, etc.. He's the expert, and his statements are based on real data, not just theory.
....
Having said that, I CAN speak from experience. I used to use ATF in my oil as a "flush" up until about 3 years ago. In fact, one of the reasons I joined BITOG is because I was curious about that kind of thing and what was "good practice" vs. what was "bad practice". As I say, I used to use ATF as a flush/cleaner, but I stopped doing that, and ultimately switched to MMO after finding out, from Molakule, that ATF was not a good way to do it.
MMO has proven to be a much better "add-in" product to do light cleaning of the engine internals. I say this from experience... MMO >>>> ATF
... I'll also add one other thing. You said "I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage." - Absence of evidence of harm is not proof of benefit. All you can say is that you have not seen any apparent proof that it's not causing damage.
LOL!
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
Wow, you're off to a great start here on BITOG..
Having said that, you're off the mark here. Molakule knows his stuff, has tons of real-world experience, knows the underlying scientific data, etc.. He's the expert, and his statements are based on real data, not just theory.
....
Having said that, I CAN speak from experience. I used to use ATF in my oil as a "flush" up until about 3 years ago. In fact, one of the reasons I joined BITOG is because I was curious about that kind of thing and what was "good practice" vs. what was "bad practice". As I say, I used to use ATF as a flush/cleaner, but I stopped doing that, and ultimately switched to MMO after finding out, from Molakule, that ATF was not a good way to do it.
MMO has proven to be a much better "add-in" product to do light cleaning of the engine internals. I say this from experience... MMO >>>> ATF
... I'll also add one other thing. You said "I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage." - Absence of evidence of harm is not proof of benefit. All you can say is that you have not seen any apparent proof that it's not causing damage.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
LOL!
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theory
I didn't see anyone else post that they, use/used Trans Fluid in their Oil?
I did post that I had actually performed, not just "Theorized". And........ I'm not talking about back when trans fluid had................ I mentioned the exact time frame I performed.
And I have basically the same You did it, but had no evidence of benefit or harm as other posters here. The difference is, "I have", responders not saying they have, or have not.
Its actually like one say they can run the 40 yards dash in x.x seconds, or no need to run it because they can beat everyone else, and running is a waste of time because. blah, blah, blah, blah. But never run it, or state when they did? At least I can say I ran the 40 yard dash, and made it past the finish line with no problems and believe I experienced. That's just the facts I see here reading into the actual facts, cutting out the difference in theories.
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
You got a good start, but try looking up the scientific method. One use doesn't prove anything.
LOL!
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theory
I didn't see anyone else post that they, use/used Trans Fluid in their Oil?
I did post that I had actually performed, not just "Theorized". And........ I'm not talking about back when trans fluid had................ I mentioned the exact time frame I performed.
And I have basically the same You did it, but had no evidence of benefit or harm as other posters here. The difference is, "I have", responders not saying they have, or have not.
Its actually like one say they can run the 40 yards dash in x.x seconds, or no need to run it because they can beat everyone else, and running is a waste of time because. blah, blah, blah, blah. But never run it, or state when they did? At least I can say I ran the 40 yard dash, and made it past the finish line with no problems and believe I experienced. That's just the facts I see here reading into the actual facts, cutting out the difference in theories.
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
You got a good start, but try looking up the scientific method. One use doesn't prove anything.
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
Originally Posted By: jgscott
LOL!
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
Wow, you're off to a great start here on BITOG..
Having said that, you're off the mark here. Molakule knows his stuff, has tons of real-world experience, knows the underlying scientific data, etc.. He's the expert, and his statements are based on real data, not just theory.
....
Having said that, I CAN speak from experience. I used to use ATF in my oil as a "flush" up until about 3 years ago. In fact, one of the reasons I joined BITOG is because I was curious about that kind of thing and what was "good practice" vs. what was "bad practice". As I say, I used to use ATF as a flush/cleaner, but I stopped doing that, and ultimately switched to MMO after finding out, from Molakule, that ATF was not a good way to do it.
MMO has proven to be a much better "add-in" product to do light cleaning of the engine internals. I say this from experience... MMO >>>> ATF
... I'll also add one other thing. You said "I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage." - Absence of evidence of harm is not proof of benefit. All you can say is that you have not seen any apparent proof that it's not causing damage.
Great point. By the counter, do you have proof the counter?
Without knowing Molakule, I never doubted or proposed that Molakule does not know is stuff. Based on your post I'm confident that He must, and do respect that. But...... others are entitled to their own opinion, but.... not their own facts. Discussion of counter is good. And I am entitled to my opinion with the same due respect here as I have given all other posters.
One is entitled to have a difference of opinion about today's current transmission fluids as opposed to, years ago. Same as some here point out oils today and the benefits. Are whale products still used in the current transmission fluids I used in my application and experience? NO. Are Old oils the ones I am using (by date purchased)? NO.
Originally Posted By: jgscott
LOL!
Let me sum it up please:
I've done it. I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage. Is it? Does it make it better?
Other's = its worst, or a waste of time w/ No experience or real Scientific data or test. "Just trust my expert Theory".
Wow, you're off to a great start here on BITOG..
Having said that, you're off the mark here. Molakule knows his stuff, has tons of real-world experience, knows the underlying scientific data, etc.. He's the expert, and his statements are based on real data, not just theory.
....
Having said that, I CAN speak from experience. I used to use ATF in my oil as a "flush" up until about 3 years ago. In fact, one of the reasons I joined BITOG is because I was curious about that kind of thing and what was "good practice" vs. what was "bad practice". As I say, I used to use ATF as a flush/cleaner, but I stopped doing that, and ultimately switched to MMO after finding out, from Molakule, that ATF was not a good way to do it.
MMO has proven to be a much better "add-in" product to do light cleaning of the engine internals. I say this from experience... MMO >>>> ATF
... I'll also add one other thing. You said "I've experienced no adverse affects or known damage." - Absence of evidence of harm is not proof of benefit. All you can say is that you have not seen any apparent proof that it's not causing damage.
Great point. By the counter, do you have proof the counter?
Without knowing Molakule, I never doubted or proposed that Molakule does not know is stuff. Based on your post I'm confident that He must, and do respect that. But...... others are entitled to their own opinion, but.... not their own facts. Discussion of counter is good. And I am entitled to my opinion with the same due respect here as I have given all other posters.
One is entitled to have a difference of opinion about today's current transmission fluids as opposed to, years ago. Same as some here point out oils today and the benefits. Are whale products still used in the current transmission fluids I used in my application and experience? NO. Are Old oils the ones I am using (by date purchased)? NO.
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