You know what ABS stands for right?
[Expletive] Braking System
[Expletive] Braking System
ABS - Love it or Leave it?
- Thread starter ndfergy
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Originally Posted By: CKN
People driving in snow, rain, and ice without slowing down (see it all the time) is thinning the gene pool when they ultimately have an accident, if they are not smart enough to figure it out-so be it.
Yep.
All wheel drive + sub-par all season tires + overconfident driver = car goes in the ditch.
A few winters ago I pulled an SUV out of a ditch that had racing slicks for tires. The driver couldn't understand why they got stuck because "they had AWD".
This is why every road has 10 tons of salt dumped on it when there is an inch of snow.
People driving in snow, rain, and ice without slowing down (see it all the time) is thinning the gene pool when they ultimately have an accident, if they are not smart enough to figure it out-so be it.
Yep.
All wheel drive + sub-par all season tires + overconfident driver = car goes in the ditch.
A few winters ago I pulled an SUV out of a ditch that had racing slicks for tires. The driver couldn't understand why they got stuck because "they had AWD".
This is why every road has 10 tons of salt dumped on it when there is an inch of snow.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
CKN said:
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: CKN
People driving in snow, rain, and ice without slowing down (see it all the time) is thinning the gene pool when they ultimately have an accident, if they are not smart enough to figure it out-so be it.
Yep.
All wheel drive + sub-par all season tires + overconfident driver = car goes in the ditch.
A few winters ago I pulled an SUV out of a ditch that had racing slicks for tires. The driver couldn't understand why they got stuck because "they had AWD".
This is why every road has 10 tons of salt dumped on it when there is an inch of snow.
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
Originally Posted By: CKN
People driving in snow, rain, and ice without slowing down (see it all the time) is thinning the gene pool when they ultimately have an accident, if they are not smart enough to figure it out-so be it.
Yep.
All wheel drive + sub-par all season tires + overconfident driver = car goes in the ditch.
A few winters ago I pulled an SUV out of a ditch that had racing slicks for tires. The driver couldn't understand why they got stuck because "they had AWD".
This is why every road has 10 tons of salt dumped on it when there is an inch of snow.
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
Back in the late '90s I was driving my wife's 3 Series(equipped with Michelin Arctic Alpin winter tires) in a wintry mix of precipitation. I was going at a comfortable clip of about 50 mph and several 4X4s came blasting by. A mile down the road a couple of them had spun into the guardrail and/or slid into a ditch.
I resisted the temptation to beep the horn and wave as I passed by...
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
Back in the late '90s I was driving my wife's 3 Series(equipped with Michelin Arctic Alpin winter tires) in a wintry mix of precipitation. I was going at a comfortable clip of about 50 mph and several 4X4s came blasting by. A mile down the road a couple of them had spun into the guardrail and/or slid into a ditch.
I resisted the temptation to beep the horn and wave as I passed by...
I've watched ABS improve greatly over the years. Surprisingly my tundra which is an 06 still uses a 3-channel, with the rears on the same hydraulics. Notably, the chrysler minivans we've had both had /excellent/ ABS. The worst was a '97 pathfinder.
I don't like ABS off road.
I don't like it AT ALL on a snowy downhill, not one stinking bit. In fact, I will avoid certain snowy descents because of how badly ABS can mangle snow braking under certain conditions.
But for everything else, I'd much rather have it.
I don't like ABS off road.
I don't like it AT ALL on a snowy downhill, not one stinking bit. In fact, I will avoid certain snowy descents because of how badly ABS can mangle snow braking under certain conditions.
But for everything else, I'd much rather have it.
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
That's the truth. Last year, driving the Ring Road, I saw many AWD and 4WD trucks and SUVs in the ditch, yet my RWD G37 stayed between the lines, somehow.
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
That's the truth. Last year, driving the Ring Road, I saw many AWD and 4WD trucks and SUVs in the ditch, yet my RWD G37 stayed between the lines, somehow.
Knowing how your vehicle handles, and being able to correct it properly is key. I've had the back end come out on me a few times over the years, but I just slowly correct and all is well. Many drivers make panic moves, jam on the brakes, and have no idea how to handle their vehicle.
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Knowing how your vehicle handles, and being able to correct it properly is key. I've had the back end come out on me a few times over the years, but I just slowly correct and all is well. Many drivers make panic moves, jam on the brakes, and have no idea how to handle their vehicle.
Exactly. Most US vehicle operators("driver" is far too generous a term) respond to every emergency situation by slamming on the brakes- thus hitting whatever they are pointed at.
Knowing how your vehicle handles, and being able to correct it properly is key. I've had the back end come out on me a few times over the years, but I just slowly correct and all is well. Many drivers make panic moves, jam on the brakes, and have no idea how to handle their vehicle.
Exactly. Most US vehicle operators("driver" is far too generous a term) respond to every emergency situation by slamming on the brakes- thus hitting whatever they are pointed at.
Normally I don't mind the ABS in Focus, even for autocross as it allows you to explore the limits of threshold braking. It doesn't work great though when you you are turning hard enough to have one of the back tires up in the air, and then hit some bumps to upset the inside front tire too... The ABS seemed be pulsing hard enough to minimize braking for the outside tires with grip and while I could steer, the car wouldn't stop.
So this
Led to this without even any skid marks on the grass!
It was a too small of a stop area for the speed we were finishing at, and I needed to run WO to the line to beat my buddy, but I was surprised when the car just wouldn't slow down! I did have full steering though so I missed the concrete barriers.
So this
Led to this without even any skid marks on the grass!
It was a too small of a stop area for the speed we were finishing at, and I needed to run WO to the line to beat my buddy, but I was surprised when the car just wouldn't slow down! I did have full steering though so I missed the concrete barriers.
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Knowing how your vehicle handles, and being able to correct it properly is key. I've had the back end come out on me a few times over the years, but I just slowly correct and all is well. Many drivers make panic moves, jam on the brakes, and have no idea how to handle their vehicle.
Agreed. Steer first and don't brake unless necessary.
I think a big problem today compared to when I was a teen in the 70's is the cost of ownership and where to practice. As kids we couldn't wait to take our beaters that we bought cheap and fixed up to a local parking lot to slip slid to our hearts content. Sundays' were great because most stores were closed. We also didn't have to deal with the proliferation of islands/boulevards to get in our way. I would imagine today you couldn't get away, at least not for long, with goofing around like that.
Knowing how your vehicle handles, and being able to correct it properly is key. I've had the back end come out on me a few times over the years, but I just slowly correct and all is well. Many drivers make panic moves, jam on the brakes, and have no idea how to handle their vehicle.
Agreed. Steer first and don't brake unless necessary.
I think a big problem today compared to when I was a teen in the 70's is the cost of ownership and where to practice. As kids we couldn't wait to take our beaters that we bought cheap and fixed up to a local parking lot to slip slid to our hearts content. Sundays' were great because most stores were closed. We also didn't have to deal with the proliferation of islands/boulevards to get in our way. I would imagine today you couldn't get away, at least not for long, with goofing around like that.
Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: eljefino
And that's hard to swallow. A so-called safety device needs to make things safer 100% of the time. To compromise in one area to enhance another is a moral quandary.
Ridiculous statement of the day. People driving in snow, rain, and ice without slowing down (see it all the time) is thinning the gene pool when they ultimately have an accident, if they are not smart enough to figure it out-so be it.
If that was a criteria, things like seat belts and air bags would never have been developed either. Neither are 100% effective, and have been even know to injure, maim and kill.
On a broader level, I would also take it to mean that those of that mindset don't believe in or use medications either, which can have side effects ranging from mild to potentially lethal, yet also not be 100% effective.
Ridiculous indeed.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
And that's hard to swallow. A so-called safety device needs to make things safer 100% of the time. To compromise in one area to enhance another is a moral quandary.
Ridiculous statement of the day. People driving in snow, rain, and ice without slowing down (see it all the time) is thinning the gene pool when they ultimately have an accident, if they are not smart enough to figure it out-so be it.
If that was a criteria, things like seat belts and air bags would never have been developed either. Neither are 100% effective, and have been even know to injure, maim and kill.
On a broader level, I would also take it to mean that those of that mindset don't believe in or use medications either, which can have side effects ranging from mild to potentially lethal, yet also not be 100% effective.
Ridiculous indeed.
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
If that was a criteria, things like seat belts and air bags would never have been developed either. Neither are 100% effective, and have been even know to injure, maim and kill.
That's absolutely true. There definitely are instances where a seatbelt being used properly would result in a death where it otherwise might not have happened. But those circumstances are so rare as to be negligible.
Now, if they made matters worse, like the early efforts at laminated windshields, that's another matter altogether.
If that was a criteria, things like seat belts and air bags would never have been developed either. Neither are 100% effective, and have been even know to injure, maim and kill.
That's absolutely true. There definitely are instances where a seatbelt being used properly would result in a death where it otherwise might not have happened. But those circumstances are so rare as to be negligible.
Now, if they made matters worse, like the early efforts at laminated windshields, that's another matter altogether.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
That's the truth. Last year, driving the Ring Road, I saw many AWD and 4WD trucks and SUVs in the ditch, yet my RWD G37 stayed between the lines, somehow.
That's what drivers think, but AWD doesn't put you in the ditch. Thinking AWD helps you stop puts people in the ditch. It just helps with not getting stuck and slightly better handling. Does nothing to increase braking performance aside from maybe the additional weight of the system might help with traction over a model that doesn't have it.
The AWD in my current car is probably worse for driving in the snow than a previous car that was just FWD. The AWD system is still rear wheel drive biased, I think it's a 55/45 split so the rear end still slides out on turns if you go too fast. Plus it now has 245 tires and wide tires are worse for snow, previous car had 215 tires so although the weight on the newer one is probably slightly higher, still less weight on the contact patch. It doesn't get stuck though, the FWD would get stuck once in a while and you'd have to turn the steering wheel to find a spot where it might bite but I've gotten stuck before with it when it was on ice. No problem in AWD.
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
AWD just puts you further into the ditch.
That's the truth. Last year, driving the Ring Road, I saw many AWD and 4WD trucks and SUVs in the ditch, yet my RWD G37 stayed between the lines, somehow.
That's what drivers think, but AWD doesn't put you in the ditch. Thinking AWD helps you stop puts people in the ditch. It just helps with not getting stuck and slightly better handling. Does nothing to increase braking performance aside from maybe the additional weight of the system might help with traction over a model that doesn't have it.
The AWD in my current car is probably worse for driving in the snow than a previous car that was just FWD. The AWD system is still rear wheel drive biased, I think it's a 55/45 split so the rear end still slides out on turns if you go too fast. Plus it now has 245 tires and wide tires are worse for snow, previous car had 215 tires so although the weight on the newer one is probably slightly higher, still less weight on the contact patch. It doesn't get stuck though, the FWD would get stuck once in a while and you'd have to turn the steering wheel to find a spot where it might bite but I've gotten stuck before with it when it was on ice. No problem in AWD.
Yes, that was it, basically. They simply overdrove the conditions and their skill level. Anecdotally, with the Lightning and its wide tires, I didn't have any problems on ice. Snow of any depth was terrible, though.
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