A1/B1-A5/B5 "Low Vis" (vs) A3/B3-B4 LL01-MB 229.5

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BritGerCarLuvr

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Here we are, and I've made a lot of changes & I wish to thank many members of this board for their great advice. I do, however how one more issue for which I need some clarification.
I will keep my question simple.

Q) If your car called for either oil "type", but preferred low vis WSS M2C929-A, A1/B1 A5/B5, knowing that the A3/B3-B4 LL01 MB 229.5 are higher HT/HS and Vis, would you run them in your car, and why? (instead of the "energy conserving" low vis stuff. Is there an advantage to running high HT/HS high Vis in a car that runs just fine with the A5/B5 stuff.(long life/ Better starts? Wear more/Less/)

Now running A5/B5 in both Jags and the High HT/HS A3/B4 LL01 MB 229.5 in the BMW and the Benz.
 
Depends upon the application. If one of the low vis specs was explicitly mentioned, then I would go with an oil meeting that spec. Ditto for the high vis situation.

If nothing but a viscosity was mentioned, Id likely base it upon service and load type.
 
Well, I guess I have to specify... Oil & Filter changed every 5000 Miles WITHOUT EXCEPTION on all cars.

For arguement sake, the supercharged Jag is driven pretty hard about 30% of the time. So is the BMW. Both go to RED LINE about 10% of their driven times. The other two cars (Merc & Baby Jag are daily communters in traffic and are rarely driven hard. All cars, however get a WOT run about once every two months with some Techron in the tank.

I am just curious why Jag would recommend the low-vis stuff, while Benz and BMW want the High Vis High HT/HS stuff. It would seem, from what I read that High HT/HS doesn't break down as much and that engines like High Vis for startup and running. So other than saving the cats, and the planet, why the other stuff? Don't get me wrong - everything is running great - I just would like to know why, for example if I ran the NON MB 229.5 or Non LL-01 in the Merc or the Beemer respectively, apparently I would have a catastrophy.
 
Originally Posted By: BritGerCarLuvr
Q) If your car called for either oil "type", but preferred low vis WSS M2C929-A, A1/B1 A5/B5, knowing that the A3/B3-B4 LL01 MB 229.5 are higher HT/HS and Vis, would you run them in your car, and why?

Notwithstanding race track use on hot summer days, no. You always want your oil to be as thin as possible, and only as thick as necessary.


Originally Posted By: BritGerCarLuvr
Is there an advantage to running high HT/HS high Vis in a car that runs just fine with the A5/B5 stuff.(long life/ Better starts? Wear more/Less/)

The only certain advantage is maintenance of oil pressure and proper films at very high temps, near or past the normal operating temperature range of the engine's parts.
 
Originally Posted By: BritGerCarLuvr
I am just curious why Jag would recommend the low-vis stuff, while Benz and BMW want the High Vis High HT/HS stuff.

Part of it is design choice. I've heard that German makes tend to design their engines in such a way that certain critical areas run very hot, requiring the higher HTHS viscosity.

Another part may be expected or intended usage patterns. German makes design their cars to be operated continuously at or near maximum output, for hours on end, day after day. Other makes may or may not do similarly.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I run thick in summer and thin in winter.


Do you have a reason for doing that? I'm just wondering, because the engines in the cars you list (like every VAG car for the last 15 years or more) have pretty good cooling systems that keep things right where they should be in all conditions, and a coolant/oil heat exchanger, and I'd be pretty surprised if your oil temps differed significantly between summer and winter.

About 8 or 9 years ago I ran Mobil 1 0W40 and 5W30 in a moderately modified 1.8T (K04, exhaust, K04 chip, etc.). Included in the analysis was use of the 5W30 - the "thinner" oil at operating temps - during a whole summer in Virginia. It actually turned in slightly better numbers than the 0W40, and stellar numbers in general.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Cold starts are improved over the USA speced 5w-40. In summer there are no cold starts.


"Cold" is a relative term. 100F is "cold" for any oil in the sense that it's well below operating temp. Even a synthetic 0W-20 is much more viscous than optimal at 100F.

In any event, I get using a 0W-XX in winter versus a 5W-XX or 10W-XX. What I don't get is why you wouldn't just run a 0W-XX ACEA A3 oil like GC or M1 0W40 year round, given that running an oil with higher viscosity at either end is pointless.

You're still starting "cold" in the summer in oil terms even when it's 100F outside, and your cars don't know the difference (in normal road, non-track use) at operating temp. What advantage do you gain by adding viscosity at startup temps in the summer?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trajan
I run 0w-xx year round myself now.


As do I - I honestly cannot come up with a good reason to run a 5WXX or 10WXX for most applications, other than cost (because 0W will always be a synthetic).
 
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I run thick in summer and thin in winter.


Do you have a reason for doing that?

AJ just likes to complicate things for no reason.
 
Maybe some posters are unaware that this engine specs 5w-30 in Europe, so I'd call either grade "normal". Seeing as how I get dealer changes of 5w-40 for free, and I have a stash of 5w-30 at home already, it seems like an ideal practice. Do you propose I do the opposite, thick oil in winter and thin in summer?

I guess I'm confused, because my "cold starts" ranged from -8f upwards, not above freezing for months at a time. My calculations show a vast difference in visc between 5w-40 and 5w-30. iirc at -13f, M1 TDT is 9300cSt, while Edge 5w-30 is 3400cSt. So, with a turbo to lube and short trip driving, there is a CLEAR advantage to the 5w-30 in cold flow, and the improved mog just about offsets the winter fuel blend.

Hot/cold thick/thin, pretty complicated.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Maybe some posters are unaware that this engine specs 5w-30 in Europe, so I'd call either grade "normal". Seeing as how I get dealer changes of 5w-40 for free, and I have a stash of 5w-30 at home already, it seems like an ideal practice. Do you propose I do the opposite, thick oil in winter and thin in summer?

I guess I'm confused, because my "cold starts" ranged from -8f upwards, not above freezing for months at a time. My calculations show a vast difference in visc between 5w-40 and 5w-30. iirc at -13f, M1 TDT is 9300cSt, while Edge 5w-30 is 3400cSt. So, with a turbo to lube and short trip driving, there is a CLEAR advantage to the 5w-30 in cold flow, and the improved mog just about offsets the winter fuel blend.

Hot/cold thick/thin, pretty complicated.


5W30 is a viscosity, not a spec.

You also haven't responded to what I actually asked, which is why you go back and forth rather than just use the less viscous oil year round. If you ran GC or M1 0W40 year round, you'd meed all the specs, have the best possible cold start performance, and have an oil that will still perform outstandingly in the summer (which isn't really an issue anyway given that your car and its cooling system don't know the difference).
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I run thick in summer and thin in winter.


Do you have a reason for doing that?

AJ just likes to complicate things for no reason.


I've noticed.
 
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Trajan
I run 0w-xx year round myself now.


As do I - I honestly cannot come up with a good reason to run a 5WXX or 10WXX for most applications, other than cost (because 0W will always be a synthetic).


I've used M1 0w-40 too. Good oil, meets LL-01 specs. But from what I understand it shears to a 30w. If I happen to be out where a Walmart has it, I'd buy it and use it. It's cheaper.

But I don't see any reason to run one viscosity in summer and another in winter. And what about spring and fall?
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan

I've used M1 0w-40 too. Good oil, meets LL-01 specs. But from what I understand it shears to a 30w. If I happen to be out where a Walmart has it, I'd buy it and use it. It's cheaper.


It does tend to shear to the upper range of a 30, which is annoying in the reports to the oil lunatics around here but appears to have absolutely no effect on its performance. That's not surprising given that you can be in the 30 range and still meet ACEA A3 HT/HS requirements, as German Castrol demonstrates. In fact, if you leave the M1 0W40 in long enough, it starts to "thicken" back up.

Maybe somebody can explain situations where there is an advantage to using a 5W or 10W at any temperature - that's an honest question. I just can't think of such a scenario where the engine would benefit from having to pump and circulate a more viscous lubricant at startup.
 
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Maybe somebody can explain situations where there is an advantage to using a 5W or 10W at any temperature - that's an honest question. I just can't think of such a scenario where the engine would benefit from having to pump and circulate a more viscous lubricant at startup.


The purported value is not from the added cold viscosity. It's from additional shear-stability and lower VII content (which may or may not actually exist or matter, of course).
 
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
5W30 is a viscosity, not a spec.

You also haven't responded to what I actually asked, which is why you go back and forth rather than just use the less viscous oil year round. If you ran GC or M1 0W40 year round, you'd meed all the specs, have the best possible cold start performance, and have an oil that will still perform outstandingly in the summer (which isn't really an issue anyway given that your car and its cooling system don't know the difference).



5w-30 is a spec, not a viscosity. I'm not sure you understand that SAE "spec"ifies a visc range and that the 504 oils VW "specs" is indeed 5w-30. Are you rather trying to make a point about syntax? It's not really clear from your post.

I don't think you understand as well that 0w-30 GC and 0w-40 M1 DO NOT "provide the best possible starting". If you bothered to refer to facts and figures, this fact is easily determined from the figures provided by the manufacturers. Are you sill suggesting otherwise? Some references would help the group understand your backwards assertions.

Maybe it was my fault you missed it, but I clearly indicated, as is common knowledge, that VW services are done with 5w-40 oil, which I consider thick..especially bearing in mind that 5w-30 is speced in Europe. Are you saying I should not use their oil, that I should BYO oil or what?

0-30.jpg


All you've done is demand I explain something that either- needs no explanation because it is so obvious, or simply because you failed to grasp the statements I already provided. Either way, it's my fault. Although I do try to write in the simplest and clearest terms, and I provide references, I'm just not smart enough to convey these concepts to every single member.

Perhaps if you weren't so distracted with word-play and demands, you could get a grasp on what I consider basic concepts.
 
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I run thick in summer and thin in winter.


Do you have a reason for doing that?

AJ just likes to complicate things for no reason.


I've noticed.



Sorry that my posts and concepts seem "complicated" to you guys. Maybe Helen should just pass out some crayons and colouring books.
 
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