A noticable difference.. or a mind game?

[SpitfireS]

Hello All

This is my first post inhere, thanks for the Junior Membership

I own & drive a Honda S2000, of about 6 years old with 115500 km on the clock.

Lets get straight to the point:
Last weekend I changed my engine oil & filter from 5W-40 to 0W-40.
Same brand, being Shell Helix Ultra.
On a cold start I noticed (still do actually) a difference in how the engine runs when still cold, less noise, less "protest" when going into the 3500-4000 rpm range. Also I found the car being at operating temp much sooner then before, on a daily route to work one would "know" the points where a car is warm.
The outside temp on Wednesday was about the same as before the change, being around -2 C, this morning it was around -3C.

I posted these "findings" on the S2Ki boards and one senoir member replyed that the differences I noticed were not noticable, the difference in oil alone could/would not have made such a noticable difference.
The old oil was not old, was for 10000 km in the engine as was the filter.

He posted a link to this site as being a place to find the experts.

I am curious what you guys / girls

have to say about it.

 

[GoldenRod]

First of all let me say that sadly as though it seems, there are no girls on this board.

I have all but given up trying to find my soul mate on BITOG. However, who knows, perhaps maybe we can get Paris Hilton to join; she must certainly know something about lubrication.

It sounds like to me that your Honda likes the thinner oil. Good work!

 

[Dave H]

I don't know the specs of the two oils you are comparing, but I would think a 0w will provide easier cold weather starts than a 5w (that's why they have different "w's", for winter). I also believe that a person who is "in-tune" with their car may notice subtle differences. Especially when it comes to little noises, throttle response, warm-up, etc on a known daily route. In short, I do not think you are out of your mind.
I've run 3 different oils in my '97 Maxima. Mobil 1 5w30, Castrol GTX 5w30, and green GC (German Castrol Syntec 0w30). The Mobil 1, which is a thinner 30 wt, made my engine louder, especially the top end. The GTX conventional was better the noise, and the GC was the best. The engine was smoothest with the GC also. It turns out Maximas like thick 30 wts, and the oils I listed are in order of thinnest to thickest.
You may have found a "better" oil for your car based on a subtle weight difference. Albeit a subjective difference, it's your opinion that matters.
You can do a search on the board to see what other S2000 owners have tried, and what they like. There may even be some UOA's that'll help you decide on what oil is "best" for your car. Of course getting UOA's to check the results on your car will help you make a more informed decision. and they can alert you to potential little problems before they become huge problems.

Welcome to the board.
Oh, there are some on here who may seem obsessive. It's a disease that runs rampant on here, and it doesn't take too long to get infected. But then everyone will seem normal....

Dave

 

[Titan]

Just because an oil is a 0 Weight, it does NOT mean it is thinner than a 5 weight at a given temperature, for example, 32 F. It means the 0 weight still flows at something like minus 35 degrees. The 5 weight may stop flowing at something like minus 30 degrees. No big deal. What CAN matter is what viscosities these oils are at 32 degrees F, and at 50 degrees, and 100 degrees, etc.

A good example is Green Castrol 0-30. It is thicker than most any 30 weight oil from about zero F all the way up to operating temps.

 

[Jim Allen]

I'm inclined to discount many subjective observation on engines in the realm of, it "feels" like it runs better. I "feel" like my truck runs better after an oil change, but if I were to subject it to a battery of objective tests, the odds are good there would be no difference in performance. That said, if a noise comes or goes... that isn't subjective. Still, having done a lot of dyno tests, I know that you really cannot feel a small difference in power on the old "Butt Dyno" (seat of the pants) and a very small, tiny in fact, difference is all you're going to get with any oil upgrade. As to your Honda warming up faster and such, maybe. Maybe it was something else too, some variable you didn't notice.

As some here have said, I doubt the diffeerence between a 0W and a 5W will have any effect. Titan above explained it very well.

 

[SpitfireS]

What about viscosity index?
I dont know if that is a linear value.
For the 0W oil it is 187, for the 5W it is 179.
I do know the higher the number the less the oil will change viscosity.
And the 0W is much thinner at room temp.

Thanks for the reply's so far.
And since there are no girls inhere.. goodbye!
LOL!

 

[n8wvi]

quote:

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Originally posted by SpitfireS:

And the 0W is much thinner at room temp.

---

That's not necessarily true. GC 0w30 is THICKER at 20C than Syntec 5w30 at the same temp.

Dave

 

[sgtgeek]

Various tweaks and various fluids can often times result in an engine spooling up quicker or smoother....now this doesn't reflect well on a dyno...but there it is nevertheless.....same oil manufacturer....take a 5-40 and a 0-40 and you get two different oils/add packs/characteristics.....even friction modifiers or amount of those modifiers will vary...even from the same oil manufacturer.....so while some will say your butt dyno is playing tricks on you...I say good for you...you have a oil that apparently allows positive results over your previous choice....Case in point....Lube Control....now one should not see or feel any difference....but I have seen almost without exception....smoother running engines....quicker starts....and increased efficiency from using LC.....now go and baseline a car....use LC for awhile...then revisit the dyno and I doubt you will see much (if any) tangible upward results....but there it is....and you cannot deny...the engine operates "better" after using LC for awhile...we call that the butt dyno and it is real and rarely wrong

 

[G-MAN]

I think you are probably fully in-tune with your vehicle and are noticing a real difference which is due to the 0w40 oil flowing a little easier in the cold.

I had the same experience with my Chrysler when I went to 5w20 vs the 10w30 that is specified in the owners manual. My engine is noticeably smoother at all temps with 5w20. In addition, I have automatic climate control which in the winter won't allow the blower motor to come on until the water temp reaches a certain point. With 5w20 the fan ALWAYS comes on sooner than with 10w30, which tells me the engine is warming up faster on the 5w20.

 

[SpitfireS]

n8wvi
Member # 371 posted 23 March, 2006 13:12

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SpitfireS:

And the 0W is much thinner at room temp.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's not necessarily true. GC 0w30 is THICKER at 20C than Syntec 5w30 at the same temp.

---

Well.. I had two bottles of oil, one being 0W-40 and one being 5W-40 and the 0W was thinner at room temp (20-21C)
Shell doesnt specify the viscosity at 0C or 20C, just at 40C and 100C.
I have been reading about viscosity index, saying one could calculate a viscosity at any given point with it, but I dont know what the calculation is.
With the viscosity index known and two known viscosties maybe the viscosity at 0C can be calculated by you guys?

 

[SpitfireS]

One other thing: i'm not talking about power gain, or dyno runs. Just daily traffic with a cold engine.
Each and every one of you "must" have noticed an engine "protesting" when forced into higher revs when cold. Picture this, in the morning you decide to overtake that slow truck while there is no one coming from the opposite direction, and while doing so you that truck accelerates as well with you being beside it. What to do? Reluctantly you throttle up to overtake, well.. thats what I did. And the engine did not like it, made a lot of noise. Now with that 0W oil, I just tried revving the engine a bit while driving and it sounded much smoother, when cold.
It is NOT my thing to rev cold engines, not at all, I guess im to much of an engineer to dare doing that. But when I "have" to.. I do.
It is a better solution the a head on crash.

Okay.. the best solution was to brake and get behind the truck, but in an S2000.. well... need I say more?

 

[pbm]

SpitfireS: Welcome to the board and I'd like to say that I envy you 'commuting' in an S2000.
I would say that if you notice a positive difference using the 0 weight oil then stick with it. You might even want to try a 0w30 (possibly Mobil 1 since GC is a thicker 30 wt.) next winter and see 'how it feels'. In America, Honda spec's 30 wt. for the S2000 (I think) and Hondas do seem to like thinner oil so you should be fine. Use what feels best to you.

 

[Tim]

I'd say there was a difference, or else you would not be here asking about it.

We become awfully familiar with our vehicles, as you and others have ably pointed out. Evidently the slightly different cold flow properties of the oil, different % VII and or some other subtle differences have been picked up by your finely-tuned senses.

I don't doubt it for a second that what you have observed is real.

Explaining it is another story!!

 

[427Z06]

Assuming I have the correct Shell Helix Ultra specs you have in the Netherlands:

code:

---

Viscosity in cSt * Temps in Centigrade

Shell Helix Ultra - European?

T(C) 0w40 * 5W40

-20° 2453 2695

-10° 1105 1214

0° 554 607

10° 303 332

20° 179 196

30° 112 123

40° 74.5 81.1

50° 51.7 56.1

60° 37.3 40.4

70° 27.8 30.0

80° 21.3 23.0

90° 16.8 18.1

100° 13.5 14.5

---

Hondas in general are built tight. I'm not surprised your's prefers the less viscous oil. Temporary shear of the 0w40 may also be having the effect of an even lower viscosity oil.

[ March 23, 2006, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

 

[SpitfireS]

Now THIS is why I joined this forum.
DATA

Thank you 427Z06.
In perentage the 0W is 8.7% thinner at 0C.
The thinner the medium the better the flow is my line of thought. (within pump spec's of course)
Since that pump also pumps oil around at (lets say) 100 C it should be within spec's.

Commuting in a S2000 is a tough job, but somebody has to do it

What i read on the S2ki boards US-Honda spec's 10w30, a multigrade oil that I personally think is a bit thick for the sometimes morning temps I have to start my car.
In my European manual Honda also spec's 5W-40 for colder climats.

That "temporary shear" sounds to me as - a oil newby - as a bad thing. Is it?

I will definitly do a search to see if Mobil 1 0w30 is available in the Netherlands. From what i've been reading on a US website it also has the ILSAC GF-4 spec, and from what I understand GF-4 is the hightst rating now.

I would not describe my senses a finely tuned, makes me blush

, but I "just" noticed less noise from the engine.

Thank for all the reply's

 

[427Z06]

quote:

---

Originally posted by SpitfireS:
That "temporary shear" sounds to me as - a oil newby - as a bad thing. Is it?

---

It depends. HTHS is the value you look at for indications of this. If you have two oils of almost equal 100°C Kinematic viscosity, but one has a lower HTHS value, then this indicates that that one may be temporarily shearing more than the other. However, as long as the HTHS value is sufficient enough for the requirements of the engines, there's little to be concerned about.

For your application, you may want to consider something equivalent to the German Castrol 0w30 that is popular here in the states. Ask the guys in this forum if they can help with what's available over there:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=51

Although that Shell Helix Ultra 0w40 isn't too bad of a choice either.

[ March 23, 2006, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

 

[Ray H]

My best friend in high school swore up and down that his Volkswagen beetle ran better after he washed the car. What would ordinarily be a harmless self-delusion may be an intemperate attitude considering he's been a tenured high school science teacher for the past 35 years. (shudder> - Molding young minds to meet America's future...

)

 

[427Z06]

Relax Ray, at least there was some difference to the viscousness of the oils in question.

 

[SpitfireS]

I guess Ray is talking about this:
Cognitive dissonance, right?

Here is a quote from learningandteaching.info:

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them. Neighbour (1992) makes the generation of appropriate dissonance into a major feature of tutorial (and other) teaching: he shows how to drive this kind of intellectual wedge between learners' current beliefs and "reality".


Beyond this benign if uncomfortable aspect, however, dissonance can go "over the top", leading to two interesting side-effects for learning:

1 - if someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know — particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge — they are likely to resist the new learning. Even Carl Rogers recognised this. Accommodation is more difficult than Assimilation, in Piaget's terms.

2 - and—counter-intuitively, perhaps—if learning something has been difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating enough, people are less likely to concede that the content of what has been learned is useless, pointless or valueless. To do so would be to admit that one has been "had", or "conned".

I replyed on a S2000 forum S2Ki in the same way after a member suggested I experienced that psychological reaction, saying that I could easly state the replyer "suffered" form the 1st side effect. Should I do the same here?
All with a

of couse, this being a healthy discussion between adults.

Would Ray be able to come up with a different explaination for the differences I noticed?
Anything other then : My car played mindgames with me.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Hey DaveH?

quote:

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Oh, there are some on here who may seem obsessive. It's a disease that runs rampant on here, and it doesn't take too long to get infected. But then everyone will seem normal....

---

You forgot compulsive..

I have that.