9MM, 10MM or 40 SW

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

In actual LEO defensive encounters -

My post was nothing about LEO encounters. I suspect that less than 0.0001% of the people participating in this thread are active LE.

My post was about all this want for capacity. Capacity is more weight, more bulk, etc.

Practice. Get in a mindset. Have a plan. I prefer much better calibers/ammo to 15-19 rounds of sub-par caliber/ammo.

 

[Astro14]

My post was nothing about LEO encounters. I suspect that less than 0.0001% of the people participating in this thread are active LE.

My post was about all this want for capacity. Capacity is more weight, more bulk, etc.

Practice. Get in a mindset. Have a plan. I prefer much better calibers/ammo to 15-19 rounds of sub-par caliber/ammo.

You predicated your position on ammo capacity on LEO encounters.

You are the one who brought it up.

I challenge the underlying assumptions that you started, when you said, "I bet with all non-LEO and all off-duty LEO defensive shootings, less than 10 rounds were fired in 99.5% of the cases."

It was your opening argument on capacity, and it is a specious take on actual defensive handgun use.

I like better calibers/round effectiveness as well, but hits with a 9mm sure beat misses with a 10mm, as the FBI discovered from the performance of their own agents, who are, arguably, as well trained as a civilian who carries.

 

[Cropduster172]

I'm retired law enforcement. Carried a 6 shot Colt Detectives Special off duty for years. Now I routinely carry a 5 shot Taurus 85 Ultra Light and occasionally a Taurus PT111 G2 9mm...12+1. Have always found it amusing when civilians talk about "backup guns". These are people living in a fantasy world...be careful of what you wish for.

 

[Pablo]

I'm retired law enforcement. Carried a 6 shot Colt Detectives Special off duty for years. Now I routinely carry a 5 shot Taurus 85 Ultra Light and occasionally a Taurus PT111 G2 9mm...12+1. Have always found it amusing when civilians talk about "backup guns". These are people living in a fantasy world...be careful of what you wish for.

Were/are you the kind of cop who thought himself better than "civilians"?

 

[4WD]

Radio check

 

[Reloader59]

As other said, based on your intention. All I know is 10mm 200gr hard cast with BE-86 powder is amazingly accurate and powerful.

 

[Cropduster172]

Were/are you the kind of cop who thought himself better than "civilians"?

No. Just certain to differentiate to avoid confusion. There are plenty of civilians that work in law enforcement...in other words sworn vs. civilian if that's a better way to say it?

 

[Pablo]

No. Just certain to differentiate to avoid confusion. There are plenty of civilians that work in law enforcement...in other words sworn vs. civilian if that's a better way to say it?

No worries. I'm glad you are thoughtful and don't show disdain for us mere civilians.

I've seen videos, for example, of NY police shooting at a perp, like emptying magazines, and no hits until 40+ total shots in. Not blaming Glock here OR 9mm, oh maybe the extra nasty trigger mods they use(d), and more like did these guys train under pressure?

 

[Pablo]

You will get n+1 answers, where n is the number of people responding.

Amazing!

 

[Cropduster172]

No worries. I'm glad you are thoughtful and don't show disdain for us mere civilians.

I've seen videos, for example, of NY police shooting at a perp, like emptying magazines, and no hits until 40+ total shots in. Not blaming Glock here OR 9mm, oh maybe the extra nasty trigger mods they use(d), and more like did these guys train under pressure?

Define,"train under pressure".

 

[Inked]

Somewhat ancillary to some of the above posts, I go back to a seminar I attended in Philadelphia some years back put on by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (U.S. Army Ret.)

He authored several, fantastic books which detail studies done about soldiers and police officers in combat/violent incidents.

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society

Author	Dave Grossman
Publisher	Back Bay Books
Publication date	1996
Pages	400
ISBN	0-316-33000-0
OCLC	36544198
Followed by	On Combat: The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and in Peace

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society

 

[Pablo]

Somewhat ancillary to some of the above posts, I go back to a seminar I attended in Philadelphia some years back put on by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (U.S. Army Ret.)

He authored several, fantastic books which detail studies done about soldiers and police officers in combat/violent incidents.

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society

Author	Dave Grossman
Publisher	Back Bay Books
Publication date	1996
Pages	400
ISBN	0-316-33000-0
OCLC	36544198
Followed by	On Combat: The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and in Peace

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society

I read that book. It is interesting

 

[Pablo]

Define,"train under pressure".

Good question. Never ever going to simulate a situation when a perp is shooting back.

I am NO expert. And I think anything I rattle off will be insufficient. You must have seen, in fact I know you have been through attempts during your duty. Pop up foe/friend. Rapid fire target. Extreme lighting/lighting change drills. Moving obscuring objects. Objects coming at you, high speed. All good, but never the same because true fight/flight is not pulling your physiology.

 

[Astro14]

LCOL Grossman’s books belong on the shelf of anyone who may potentially face a life or death struggle - be they LEO, military, or someone who carries. First read it 20 years ago. Very well worth it. First recommended to me nearly 20 years ago, while I was in training.

 

[Cropduster172]

Good question. Never ever going to simulate a situation when a perp is shooting back.

I am NO expert. And I think anything I rattle off will be insufficient. You must have seen, in fact I know you have been through attempts during your duty. Pop up foe/friend. Rapid fire target. Extreme lighting/lighting change drills. Moving obscuring objects. Objects coming at you, high speed. All good, but never the same because true fight/flight is not pulling your physiology.

Well, nothing we ever shot at in the NJSP Academy shot back. But there was a no light indoor range with primer only ammo with plastic bullets...which was interesting and hours upon hours at the main range but this was in the days where the 9mm was in it's infancy in law enforcement. 1911s were somewhat in use and the first iteration of S&W 9s were just being introduced for duty sidearms..Model 39s maybe? They jammed routinely.
Memory lane tour over.

 

[Astro14]

Well, nothing we ever shot at in the NJSP Academy shot back. But there was a no light indoor range with primer only ammo with plastic bullets...which was interesting and hours upon hours at the main range but this was in the days where the 9mm was in its infancy in law enforcement. 1911s were somewhat in use and the first iteration of S&W 9s were just being intrusive for duty sidearms..Model 39s maybe? They jammed routinely.
Memory lane tour over/

Starting about 20 years ago, I got some time in the Navy’s small arms training/combat simulator.

It was built and delivered very rapidly after the events of 911, when the Navy needed to step up force protection and security at many installations, as well as ships around the world.

A good friend of mine was CEO of the company that won the contract, which was designed to develop sailors into security forces specifically, addressing roles, like gate guard, quarterdeck watch, and the like.

Actual 9 mm pistols were used, as well as actual M4s, and later, crew served weapons, and the entire thing was built with laser scoring, and realistic sound and operation (action cycling, recoil, and occasionally, malfunction), in every weapon.

Room, clearing, rapid identification of targets, friend, or foe, response to what started as a benign contact scenario, and quickly escalated into force on force, or worse, terrorist action (big, orange ball, everyone died) were all part of the scenario set.

Very realistic, very good training. Very high stress.

I’ve received even better training with the federal air marshals, but that’s a somewhat more confidential matter.

 

[Inked]

Starting about 20 years ago, I got some time in the Navy’s small arms training/combat simulator.

It was built and delivered very rapidly after the events of 911, when the Navy needed to step up force protection and security at many installations, as well as ships around the world.

A good friend of mine was CEO of the company that won the contract, which was designed to develop sailors into security forces specifically, addressing roles, like gate guard, quarterdeck watch, and the like.

Actual 9 mm pistols were used, as well as actual M4s, and later, crew served weapons, and the entire thing was built with laser scoring, and realistic sound and operation (action cycling, recoil, and occasionally, malfunction), in every weapon.

Room, clearing, rapid identification of targets, friend, or foe, response to what started as a benign contact scenario, and quickly escalated into force on force, or worse, terrorist action (big, orange ball, everyone died) were all part of the scenario set.

Very realistic, very good training. Very high stress.

I’ve received even better training with the federal air marshals, but that’s a somewhat more confidential matter.

Same here at Ft Indian Town Gap after 911.

 

[Pablo]

Model 39s maybe? They jammed routinely.

Those magazines!!

The Camp 9 rifle uses Model 39 magazines..........very picky...........

(sorry, off topic)

 

[dubber09]

Imho, before deciding on a caliber one needs a good round count in training, 9mm is cheaper to shoot esp if you shoot 300-1000 rds a month, year after year. You get good but switching to a diff gun and caliber will set you off a bit. Stay with what you train with.
For a normal person training 'under presume' should include at least indoor, outdoor in all weather conditions, low light, timed and a few more skills. Handgun shooting is a perishable skill, you need to keep practicing to be good/decent.

 

[Pew]

Perfect practice makes perfect. It's amazing what proper repetitious training does.