505.01 -so just what is the magic ingredient?
- Thread starter DR Racing
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The central camshaft lobe that drives the unit injectors is about twice as wide as the lobes that actuate the valves. In addition, the "nose" of this lobe is practically rounded. I'd estimate the pressures at the tip of this lobe are significantly LESS than the pressures at the tips of the normal cam lobes.
The 505.01 nonsense is a CYA response; given VW's troubles with sludging in the 1.8L motor. By any objective evaluation, the 5w-40, CH-4+ synlubes used in older TDI's are wholly superior to ANY 505.01 "Uberlube".
TS
The 505.01 nonsense is a CYA response; given VW's troubles with sludging in the 1.8L motor. By any objective evaluation, the 5w-40, CH-4+ synlubes used in older TDI's are wholly superior to ANY 505.01 "Uberlube".
TS
Huh? They had troubles with sludging in the 1.8L Turbo gas engines so they added the VW 505.01 requirement to the 1.9L TDI in response? I'm confused.
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I think TS meant that VW is now, due to the 1.8T sludge debacle, more insistent on the proper oil specs being used across the board, whether it be VW 502 for the gassers or VW 505.01 for the PD and the RS6. But I'm sure you knew that and simply wanted to give TS a hard time.
First off, thanks to all who replied. I have read dozens of UOAs here and at tdiclub.com regarding 505.01 and can find nothing superior about it.(except for the high price).
Quest: Castrol TXT which is sold by my local dealership ($7.25/qt) seems to be an "ok" oil. Nothing spectacular. Because of Castrol's playing fast and loose with their "synthetic" terminology, I have instead used Motul Technosynthese. The real problem is that these are GIII oils being sold at/above the price of true synthetics. If I wanted a "pseudo synthetic" GIII oil, I could simply buy Rotella 5W-40 for 1/2 the price and probably have excellent UOAs nonetheless. Regarding superior A/W or sludge-fighting, as Too Slick mentions, any CH/CI+ synthetic would probably be superior and actually worth the price. Heck, I bet even Delo 400 dino would post better UOAs.
1999nick: I did my homework before purchasing, and was well aware of the PD engine's injector system. Still, I can't find any superior EP/AW additives in the recommended oils.
DR Racing: No warning from the dealer, but did know about 505.01 nonsense from a TDI owner. Didn't know that there would be such limited choices, though.
Too Slick: I've seen your posts here regarding 505.01, and am in complete agreement. Total nonsense. Additionally, I think your criticism of some of the members at tdiclub.com is well founded. Interesting that that VWoA recommends oils which cannot legally be called synthetics in Europe.
42706 and moribundman: I agree that the sludging issue is probably why VW is streamlining their oil requirements. Some TDI owners are already using the 506.00 spec oil.
Again, thanks to all who have responded.
-------------------
"Mandrake. Quick, get over here. The Redcoats are coming!"
Quest: Castrol TXT which is sold by my local dealership ($7.25/qt) seems to be an "ok" oil. Nothing spectacular. Because of Castrol's playing fast and loose with their "synthetic" terminology, I have instead used Motul Technosynthese. The real problem is that these are GIII oils being sold at/above the price of true synthetics. If I wanted a "pseudo synthetic" GIII oil, I could simply buy Rotella 5W-40 for 1/2 the price and probably have excellent UOAs nonetheless. Regarding superior A/W or sludge-fighting, as Too Slick mentions, any CH/CI+ synthetic would probably be superior and actually worth the price. Heck, I bet even Delo 400 dino would post better UOAs.
1999nick: I did my homework before purchasing, and was well aware of the PD engine's injector system. Still, I can't find any superior EP/AW additives in the recommended oils.
DR Racing: No warning from the dealer, but did know about 505.01 nonsense from a TDI owner. Didn't know that there would be such limited choices, though.
Too Slick: I've seen your posts here regarding 505.01, and am in complete agreement. Total nonsense. Additionally, I think your criticism of some of the members at tdiclub.com is well founded. Interesting that that VWoA recommends oils which cannot legally be called synthetics in Europe.
42706 and moribundman: I agree that the sludging issue is probably why VW is streamlining their oil requirements. Some TDI owners are already using the 506.00 spec oil.
Again, thanks to all who have responded.
-------------------
"Mandrake. Quick, get over here. The Redcoats are coming!"
The only notable thing about the VOAs for all the 505.01 oils is a low (<10 PPM) boron level. The VOAs for the 506.01 specific oils were 150+ PPM.
Being the owner of a 2004 VW TDI PD, I'm weary of paying the overly-inflated prices for this oil with the "mystery" ingredient. Very limited availability and inflated stealership prices sure make other oil options inviting. Does anyone know just what is so special about 505.01 spec oil? UOAs don't indicate anything unusual in the formulation, and in fact, would suggest that 505.01-spec Castrol and Motul are rather mediocre oils. Any thoughts?
"..Castrol and Motul are rather mediocre oils..."
LOL! I've seen dramatic improvements at least on Castrol side for the past 2 decades....
As far as mystrical ingredient's concerned, 505.01 has more to do with combating sludge formation, either by having a much stronger detergent package or using some premier base stocks (mix with Group 4 base??) to make things better.
In short: there is nothing new under the sun, just stronger sludge fighting/control package + stronger AW/EP additive packages inside.
LOL! I've seen dramatic improvements at least on Castrol side for the past 2 decades....
As far as mystrical ingredient's concerned, 505.01 has more to do with combating sludge formation, either by having a much stronger detergent package or using some premier base stocks (mix with Group 4 base??) to make things better.
In short: there is nothing new under the sun, just stronger sludge fighting/control package + stronger AW/EP additive packages inside.
How much are you paying and what brand of 505.1 oil are you using? I had heard that the dealer price had come down to about the same price as any other synthetic oil. The difference in the new VW Diesel engines that requires use of this oil is in the fuel injection pump that is driven off a very narrow camshaft lobe operating under extreme high pressure. The 505.1 oil must have a lot of EP additive to preventive excessive wear of this camshaft lobe.
After break in, oil changes are only required every 10,000 miles. So what does the additional expense of 505.1 oil amount to? $5 or $10 every 10,000 miles?
After break in, oil changes are only required every 10,000 miles. So what does the additional expense of 505.1 oil amount to? $5 or $10 every 10,000 miles?
Hi, All,
I just bought an 04 Jetta diesel yesterday. And I DIDN'T do the homework on the oil. The salesman just said to use a synthetic. I just want to cut to the chase: What 505.01 5W-40 oils are generally available? Here in Hawaii Castrol Syntec is not available in that weight. Mobil 1, Valvoline and Shell Rotella T synthetics are. Considering the dire warnings in the owner's manual I'd like to use a 505.01 at least during the warranty period.
The manual also states that if a 5W-40 is not available, then 5W-30 (in 505.01) is approved. Anyone using that, and if so, what brand?
Cheers, Mark
I just bought an 04 Jetta diesel yesterday. And I DIDN'T do the homework on the oil. The salesman just said to use a synthetic. I just want to cut to the chase: What 505.01 5W-40 oils are generally available? Here in Hawaii Castrol Syntec is not available in that weight. Mobil 1, Valvoline and Shell Rotella T synthetics are. Considering the dire warnings in the owner's manual I'd like to use a 505.01 at least during the warranty period.
The manual also states that if a 5W-40 is not available, then 5W-30 (in 505.01) is approved. Anyone using that, and if so, what brand?
Cheers, Mark
Mark,
Here on the mainland, our choices in 5W-40 are limited to:
Castrol TXT (from the $tealership)
Motul 505.01 Technosynthese
Elf Excellium DID
Here on the mainland, our choices in 5W-40 are limited to:
Castrol TXT (from the $tealership)
Motul 505.01 Technosynthese
Elf Excellium DID
Mark,
Here on the mainland, our choices in 5W-40 for the PD are limited to:
Castrol TXT (from the $tealership)
Motul 505.01 Technosynthese
Elf Excellium DID
I mailorder Motul from Impexfap, and even with shipping, is still cheaper than going to my local dealership. Neither the Valvolene nor Rotella synthetics meet the 505.01 specification. You also may have to resort to buying oil from your dealership. DO NOT LET THEM TRY TO SELL YOU CASTROL SYNTEC! Many VW dealerships are servicing TDI PD engines with oils which do not meet VW 505.01. Some are even unaware of the specification! Be careful. Like you, I'm only planning to use their precious elixir until my car is out of warranty, then I'm switching to Delvac 1. Hope you find this useful.
Mark (a4tdi)
Here on the mainland, our choices in 5W-40 for the PD are limited to:
Castrol TXT (from the $tealership)
Motul 505.01 Technosynthese
Elf Excellium DID
I mailorder Motul from Impexfap, and even with shipping, is still cheaper than going to my local dealership. Neither the Valvolene nor Rotella synthetics meet the 505.01 specification. You also may have to resort to buying oil from your dealership. DO NOT LET THEM TRY TO SELL YOU CASTROL SYNTEC! Many VW dealerships are servicing TDI PD engines with oils which do not meet VW 505.01. Some are even unaware of the specification! Be careful. Like you, I'm only planning to use their precious elixir until my car is out of warranty, then I'm switching to Delvac 1. Hope you find this useful.
Mark (a4tdi)
As we use to say in the AF, "if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch".quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
But I'm sure you knew that and simply wanted to give TS a hard time.
427Z06,
I would agree - you ARE confused...
There were issues with using the wrong (gas engine) type of synthetics in first generation TDI's, after VWOA came out with their first Tech Service Bulletin (TSB) back in 1999. This called for the use of SAE 5w-30 synthetics in the TDI. As a result of this memo, many VW dealers and customers started using the Mobil 1, 5w-30 - along with other gas engine synthetics that did not meet the VW 505.00 and/or ACEA B3 specifications. By and large these oils were too thin and contained low levels of ZDP. This resulted in high rates of cam lobe wear and oil consumption in these engines. VW rectified this the following year by issuing a second TSB that superceded the first. This recommended the use of 5w-40 synthetics in the TDI that met the VW 505.00 and/or ACEA B3 specification.
In the words of P.H. "Now you know the rest of the story..."
Tooslick
(who's still has to house train the BITOG dogs, apparently...
)
I would agree - you ARE confused...
There were issues with using the wrong (gas engine) type of synthetics in first generation TDI's, after VWOA came out with their first Tech Service Bulletin (TSB) back in 1999. This called for the use of SAE 5w-30 synthetics in the TDI. As a result of this memo, many VW dealers and customers started using the Mobil 1, 5w-30 - along with other gas engine synthetics that did not meet the VW 505.00 and/or ACEA B3 specifications. By and large these oils were too thin and contained low levels of ZDP. This resulted in high rates of cam lobe wear and oil consumption in these engines. VW rectified this the following year by issuing a second TSB that superceded the first. This recommended the use of 5w-40 synthetics in the TDI that met the VW 505.00 and/or ACEA B3 specification.
In the words of P.H. "Now you know the rest of the story..."
Tooslick
(who's still has to house train the BITOG dogs, apparently...
Hi,
VW505 (issue 11/92) was met by GC SLX 0w-30 in 1996. It was the lightest viscosity synthetic oil at that time meeting VW505
Flippant disregard for the lubricant Quality Standards expoused by Euro engine manufacturers has led to many engine problems
IMHE I have seen MANY serious engine issues especially in diesels where so called oil "experts" or "know all" Workshop managers have simply disregarded the engine maker's oil Quality standards! (The same type of people did it in the 1950-60s even with the original Mini)
I have seen early versions of oils that DO meet "the standards" fail in their task due to a wanton disregard for application based OCIs and the like
IMHO one should ONLY use the lubricants that meet the engine maker's Quality Standards and have Approval where this is required
A recent statement (01/04) by Detroit Diesel (part of the largest car/truck/marine/industrial diesel engine manufacturer (MB)) is;
"Labeling terminology for today's oil is insufficient as a method of lubricant selection"
"...the proper lubricant MUST posses additional requirements that follow"
Then their own standards are documented!
They additionally state;
"Some Marketers may claim that their lubricant is suitable for all makes of diesel engines and may list engine makes and types, including Detroit Diesel on their containers. Such claims by themselves are insufficient as a method of lubricant selection for Detroit Diesel engines."
"Beware that some Marketers may indicate that their products "meet" API requirements. This is NOT adequate."
The VW505.01 Quality Standard (which will be/is updated) is one I would NOT disregard where it is specifically required - and especially so when under Warranty conditions
Ted - sometimes you recommend adhering to the Manufacturer's Quality Standards - sometimes you actively say to disregard them. Consistency is surely important to the many readers at BITOG!
I can say that where the Engine Manufacturer's lubricant Quality Standards and Servicing Routines ARE followed I have never seen the problems some people have encountered and related to us here on BITOG.
I have seen some of them when they have NOT been followed!!
Aren't the best "dogs" Wolves or Dingos? - sad about the inbreeding!
Regards
Doug
VW505 (issue 11/92) was met by GC SLX 0w-30 in 1996. It was the lightest viscosity synthetic oil at that time meeting VW505
Flippant disregard for the lubricant Quality Standards expoused by Euro engine manufacturers has led to many engine problems
IMHE I have seen MANY serious engine issues especially in diesels where so called oil "experts" or "know all" Workshop managers have simply disregarded the engine maker's oil Quality standards! (The same type of people did it in the 1950-60s even with the original Mini)
I have seen early versions of oils that DO meet "the standards" fail in their task due to a wanton disregard for application based OCIs and the like
IMHO one should ONLY use the lubricants that meet the engine maker's Quality Standards and have Approval where this is required
A recent statement (01/04) by Detroit Diesel (part of the largest car/truck/marine/industrial diesel engine manufacturer (MB)) is;
"Labeling terminology for today's oil is insufficient as a method of lubricant selection"
"...the proper lubricant MUST posses additional requirements that follow"
Then their own standards are documented!
They additionally state;
"Some Marketers may claim that their lubricant is suitable for all makes of diesel engines and may list engine makes and types, including Detroit Diesel on their containers. Such claims by themselves are insufficient as a method of lubricant selection for Detroit Diesel engines."
"Beware that some Marketers may indicate that their products "meet" API requirements. This is NOT adequate."
The VW505.01 Quality Standard (which will be/is updated) is one I would NOT disregard where it is specifically required - and especially so when under Warranty conditions
Ted - sometimes you recommend adhering to the Manufacturer's Quality Standards - sometimes you actively say to disregard them. Consistency is surely important to the many readers at BITOG!
I can say that where the Engine Manufacturer's lubricant Quality Standards and Servicing Routines ARE followed I have never seen the problems some people have encountered and related to us here on BITOG.
I have seen some of them when they have NOT been followed!!
Aren't the best "dogs" Wolves or Dingos? - sad about the inbreeding!
Regards
Doug
Will any diesel 5W-40 synthetic work well in those TDI engines?...Mobil Delvac 1 or Mobil 1 Truck & SUV, Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme, Shell Rotella-T syn, etc.?
I understand about the extremely high cost of shipping to Hawaii...I used to work for Matson. The very best paying job per minute of actual work must be the longshoremen in Honolulu.
Ken
I understand about the extremely high cost of shipping to Hawaii...I used to work for Matson. The very best paying job per minute of actual work must be the longshoremen in Honolulu.
Ken
Hi,
Ken 2 - yes, in a real sense I believe that a 5w-40 synthetic HDEO that has ACEA E4-99 (Issue 2>) (and possibly E6-04 & E7-04) Accreditation would do the job. The question is all about the Warranty implications
It is easier to live with VW505.01
Regards
Doug
Ken 2 - yes, in a real sense I believe that a 5w-40 synthetic HDEO that has ACEA E4-99 (Issue 2>) (and possibly E6-04 & E7-04) Accreditation would do the job. The question is all about the Warranty implications
It is easier to live with VW505.01
Regards
Doug
I would in all reality call the rating fine German engineering. Listen to Doug Hillary about the important stuff because of his work.
I call it a way to legally force you to buy your oil from the dealership.
Doug,
I'm nothing if not consistently inconsistent...
I only vary from the OEM recommendation when I understand the logic behind it. In this case, it's greed and not an engineering requirement.
VW 505.01 is nothing special...it's a less expensive group III basestock and a very average additive package, passed off as some Uberlube. They (VWOA) should be ashamed of themselves....
Ted
I'm nothing if not consistently inconsistent...
I only vary from the OEM recommendation when I understand the logic behind it. In this case, it's greed and not an engineering requirement.
VW 505.01 is nothing special...it's a less expensive group III basestock and a very average additive package, passed off as some Uberlube. They (VWOA) should be ashamed of themselves....
Ted
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