$50 billion bailout for the struggling big 3???

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But who bought and paid for the "real liars and thieves" as you put it? That's right - CEOs, bankers, and corporatists.

Congress is just performing the service for which they've been paid by their corporate masters. Congress is basically a brothel.

Tempest, you seem to think for that reason the people who really run the show - management of the largest multinational corporations and banks, ie "the johns", are as clean as the wind driven snow. For the life of me, I don't get why.
 
I think it's a "go with the winners, they might take you on as a pet if you're useful to them" type thing.

I think the vampires in Blade were a metaphor.
 
Last night, I was watching CNN. they showed an economist who testified that the Big 3 will need an estimated 125 BILLION to survive. He says that the Big 3 will come back within a year to ask for more money. The 34 billion they are asking for now is just a bandaid, he said.
 
Of course. You see, once you give them even $1 you have a VESTED INTEREST in not seeing them fail, and then they have you by the short and curlies and they know it. "Just a little more money and we'll be OK." yeah right.

GM and Ford have fine engineering (largely). IMO, it comes down to this:

The Japanese and *especially* Hyundai/Kia (South Korea) understand some things their domestic peers don't:

1. incremental improvement EVERY YEAR (or more often).
2. fix problems up-front and make the customer happy. Money spent by YOU today is money spent by THEM next year, and you want them to spend it on YOU.
3. understand WHY people buy your vehicles. You'd better not rely on the "I only drive Blue Oval." because when times get tough (like now) people drive "I drive something practical, cheap, and reliable!"
4. Consistency consistency consistency.

Also, look at Honda vs. GM.

Honda: one vehicle for every logical segment, no more. Period. One subcompact. One compact. One full size. One light SUV. One medium SUV. One "truck" (ahem). That's it. Badge-engineering is doomed to fail.

WHy does GM have Saturn, Pontiac, Buick, Chevrolet? Cadillac I understand, but what about GMC vs. Chevy trucks/SUVs? IMO, GM should axe Pontiac and trim up the other lineups by merging them all. No duplication.

It's not like they don't have good tech - GM's 3.6 is a winner of an engine, the small block series (5.3, 6.0) and phenominal engines. The 3.8 is legendary. They also don't understand things like this: if the 3.1 and 3.4 were redesigned at first inkling of headgasket problems they wouldn't have the reputation they've got. When is the last time you heard of a Japanese vehicle having *endemic* headgasket problems? GM's 2.0L engines are pretty good.

IMO, ultimately, GM's problems lay at the feet of two groups:

1. the board. they are ultimately responsible for the *HEALTH* of the company, not the bottom line. This is a fundamental difference between how some US companies are run and how most Japanese companies are run.

2. upper management. If it were me, I'd cut the "head" off of GM and throw Iaccoca in there. He's a Tyrant but he knows how to turn companies around.
 
The problem with the big 3, at least GM specifically, regarding it's corporate structure, is Rick Wagoner is both CEO and head of the board/chairman. He leads the group which is supposed to oversee him. Actually, that is a big problem with many giant multi-national corps. Management has become accountable to no one because they are the board of directors!

While in business school I had a professor hit that home to his students. His thesis is we need totally independent boards of directors. As of now, management, the boards, lobbyists, and government are all in collusion and no one hardly has any accountability.

How it changes I don't know.
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Congress is just performing the service for which they've been paid by their corporate masters. Congress is basically a brothel.

Then why are companies continuing to pay taxes and why are the rich continually paying higher amounts of the income tax?
Exxon is one of (the?) largest corporations in the US, make record profits, and yet they pay astronomic taxes compared to other business. You'd think they could afford to buy a few Senators and Congressmen to get those taxes down don't you? Congress even wants to increase taxes via windfall taxes.
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are as clean as the wind driven snow

Please show me where I have said this? Private industry should have consequences to poorly run businesses. Government does NOT have those same consequences.
This is very clear by the double standard of pyramid schemes.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
You'd think they could afford to buy a few Senators and Congressmen to get those taxes down don't you?


Gary and I have proved to you they have but you just dismiss it and continue arguing into perpetuity! And they've bought and received a helluva a lot more through eons of subsidies, of which I've shown you, and you dismiss.

Would you like to argue with me that the sun does not rise in the east?
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The bankers sure got lots of money from the politicians and have you noticed that many are in the top positions in government to help dig the U.S. out of the mess they made.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
So then why is Exxon still paying taxes at 41%?



(sigh) Do we need to go on "another trip to nowhere"?? Reset the argument back 300 posts ago?
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Tempest
You'd think they could afford to buy a few Senators and Congressmen to get those taxes down don't you?


Gary and I have proved to you they have but you just dismiss it and continue arguing into perpetuity! And they've bought and received a helluva a lot more through eons of subsidies, of which I've shown you, and you dismiss.

That's very interesting considering that I did a search for "Exxon subsidy" for both you and Gary and nothing came up about this in the links from the search.
If it was on the "other" board I don't recall it.
 
While he speaks sensibly, I tend to look at him as a PR campaign in bringing forth the correct action ..after all the BIG damage has been done.

Now, after all the financiers have milked us BIG TIME ..he's here to make it much easier in the aftermath to allow corporate American to renege on contractual agreements.

It's just repackaged "fine for suits ..slam the slobs".


So, what we'll have is ..hmmm..instead of a methodical plan to reintegrate the Big 3 into a sensible workable model ..where there's a KNOWN cost ..where the UAW can predict and assure benefits ...

We'll get a knee jerk reaction ...lots of bankruptcies ..and LOTS of stuff that WE pick up in pension exhaustion.

Like I said, PR that will, again, benefit the financiers.
 
Go watch Tommy Boy with the late, great Chris Farley.

Horribly garbled, "I'll put it to you this way. I can take a [poop], put it in a box and put a warranty on the box. Now, do you want to buy a genuinely good part, or a box of [poop] with a warranty on the box?"

How they get their financing in the end is worthy of study by the Big 3. The execs are not terribly happy, but the workers who keep their jobs are ecstatic.

Besides, nothing like buying a 2010 GM or Ford knowing that everybody in the nation helped chip in a little (yeah, right) to build that car. Now that's a true people's car.
 
Heck, scifi, what are you going to do with your Bagdad resort vouchers? I figure I've got a 2 week timeshare for life ..air fare included. GM should provide car rental
 
Originally Posted By: buster
http://www.europac.net/Schiff-CNN-12-4-08_lg.asp

Schiff's latest.

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Can we count on these companies to make hybrid cars?
I would order all electric vehicles!

THESE are the questions from Jane Mitchell? This person is a complete moron. Gas prices plummeting and hybrids are the question of the day?
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This is the quality of people at the news companies?

Schiff is right on.
 
Senator Dodd calling for GM CEO to step down as part of "bailout" deal. Article points out the pay difference in CEO's of big 3 and their competition. Bailout money will only be 15 billion; coming from the already approved 15 billion for the big 3 to build more fuel efficient vehicles. GM says the money will only last until March 2009, then what??

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28067839/

CHICAGO - A senator who will help determine whether the auto industry gets a $15 billion bailout said Sunday that the head of General Motors should step down, telegraphing what could be a congressional demand for a top-line shake-up in Detroit in exchange for financial life support.

Rick Wagoner, the chief executive of GM, “has to move on,” said Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., chairman of the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee. He spoke on CBS’ “Face the Nation.”

“I think you have got to consider new leadership,” Dodd said. Asked if that should be a condition of any bailout, he added, “I think it is going to have to be part of it.”

“I think it’s clear GM is in the worst shape,” Dodd said before specifying the need for Wagoner to step down.

In response, GM spokesman Steve Harris said the company appreciates Dodd’s support for the loans, but added, “GM employees, dealers, suppliers and the GM board of directors feel strongly that Rick is the right guy to lead GM through this incredibly difficult and challenging time.”

Last week, The Associated Press asked Wagoner if he would resign at the request of Congress, to which he replied, “It’s not clear to me that experience in this industry should be viewed as a negative, but I’m going to do what’s right for the company and I’m going to do it in consultation with the board.”

GM’s board recently has been meeting three times a week by telephone.

But the shots kept coming Sunday. President-elect Barack Obama accused auto executives of a persistent “head-in-the sand approach” to long-festering problems. In an appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Obama said Congress was doing “the exact right thing” in drafting legislation that “holds the auto industry’s feet to the fire” at the same time it tries to prevent its demise.

The criticism of industry leaders deepened as negotiators for the White House and Congress narrowed their differences over a plan to extend roughly $15 billion in short-term loans to any Detroit automaker that needs them. Analysts say General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC, in particular, are at risk for running out of money in the next few weeks, and that Ford Motor Co. may need help if the economy deteriorates further.

Democratic Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, whose state is ground zero for the battered industry, told “Fox News Sunday” he was confident an agreement would emerge within the next day.

Democratic leaders have said they hope to pass the measure this week. While Levin declined to predict its approval, support among rank-and-file lawmakers presumably would improve dramatically if both White House and Obama were to signal their backing once the legislation is complete.

“The last thing I want to see happen is for the auto industry to disappear, but I’m also concerned that we don’t put $10 billion or $20 billion or $30 billion or whatever billion dollars into an industry, and then, six months to a year later, they come back hat in hand and say, ‘Give me more,”’ Obama said.

Obama, who takes office Jan. 20, has drawn some criticism from Democrats who want him to become more involved in efforts to save the industry. The president-elect said his aides are monitoring developments and considering longer-term plans.

He expressed no support for calls to allow the big carmakers to enter bankruptcy and said, “We don’t want government to run companies.” Instead, he said, “if taxpayer money is at stake — which it appears may be the case — we want to make sure that it is conditioned on an auto industry emerging at the end of the process that actually works, that actually functions.

“Taxpayers, I think are fed up. They’re going through extraordinarily difficult times right now.”

Obama did not single out any individual executive by name for criticism, and said there had been incremental progress in the past 15 years toward a more competitive line of products.

“What we haven’t seen is a sense of urgency and the willingness to make tough decisions. And what we still see are executive compensation packages for the auto industry that are out of line compared to their competitors, their Japanese competitors, who are doing a lot better,” he said.

Asked whether the top executives should remain in the jobs, he said: “Here’s what I’ll say, that it may not be the same for all the companies. But what I think we have to put an end to is the head-in-the-sand approach to the auto industry that has been prevalent for decades now.”
 
Senator Todd got loans for lesser rates than any of us could ever get from Countrywide. HIS feet aren't being held to the fire. Frustrating to see this!

Dodd telling the CEO of GM to step down is like Lee Harvey Oswald telling the CEO of Smith & Wesson to step down. Ludicrous!
 
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