$50 billion bailout for the struggling big 3???

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor

They are going to have to sell them to someone who has alot of money.

Daimler sold Chrysler to the private equity firm Cerberus - so maybe that's an option for some of the Big 3.
21.gif


IMO the Japanese seem much too proud to sully their image with Pontiac or Saturn. Honda could use the Big 3's truck lineup but I don't see it happening.
 
GM or Chrysler's truck line seems to very much go against everything Honda stands for.... That would be a very hard sell I think.
 
Bailout plan is in Jeopardy, possibly not enough votes to pass.

WASHINGTON - Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says the Democrats’ plan to tap the Wall Street rescue fund to save U.S. automakers doesn’t have the votes to pass.

One day after Detroit’s Big Three sent survival plans to Capitol Hill in an urgent plea for $34 billion in government aid, Reid said there’s still not enough support in Congress for using some of the $700 billion bailout to help the teetering carmakers.

He told The Associated Press in an interview, “I just don’t think we have the votes to do that now.”

The Bush administration and auto-state Republicans and Democrats are pushing instead to take a $25 billion program to help the carmakers produce green vehicles and convert that into emergency loans.

Automakers and their union worked feverishly Wednesday to sell a skeptical Congress on a $34 billion aid plan, promising labor concessions and restructuring in advance of a second round of hearings.

In Capitol Hill meetings, industry officials said the collapse of one or more of the Big Three carmakers could deepen the recession and undermine the companies’ ability to survive.

“We’re on the brink with the U.S. auto manufacturing industry. We’re down to months left,” Chrysler’s vice chairman, Jim Press, told The Associated Press in an interview. “If we have a catastrophic failure of one of these car companies, in this tender environment for the economy, it’s a huge blow. It could trigger a depression.”


Video
Chrysler exec on autos crisis
Dec. 3: Chrysler’s Press: ‘If one of the automakers goes down, the rest go with it.’

CNBC

GM’s president and chief operating officer, Fritz Henderson, who met with congressional aides, said choosing the bankruptcy route would further erode consumer confidence in his company. About 25 auto dealers also combed through the House and Senate office buildings surrounding the Capitol, lobbying for the bailout package.

The UAW, scrambling to preserve jobs and benefits, agreed at an emergency meeting in Detroit to delay the companies’ payments to a multibillion-dollar, union-run health care trust and scale back a jobs bank in which laid-off workers are paid most of their wage. The concessions could help soothe some lawmakers who had criticized the union’s benefits as too rich when compared with those of workers at foreign-brand auto plants in the U.S..

“It should be helpful. It’s additional evidence that the UAW’s willing to participate in the painful restructuring,” said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., a top supporter of the industry.

General Motors Corp., Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. submitted three separate survival plans to Congress this week after flunking their first attempt to persuade lawmakers to throw them a lifeline.

GM and Chrysler said they needed an immediate infusion of government cash to last until New Year’s, and both said they could drag the entire industry down if they fail. Ford wants a $9 billion “standby line of credit” in case a competitor fails.

Chrysler said it needed $7 billion by year’s end to keep operating. GM asked for an immediate $4 billion as the first installment of a $12 billion loan, plus a $6 billion line of credit to use if conditions worsen.

Ford’s chief executive, Alan Mulally, and GM’s chief executive, Rick Wagoner, said they would work for $1 a year if each company accepted government loans. The carmakers also have offered to cancel bonuses and merit raises. Chrysler said its chief executive has cut his annual pay to $1.

All three plans envision the government getting a stake in the companies that would allow taxpayers to share in future gains if they recover.

The Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee was to hear testimony Thursday from the executives, the UAW’s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and the head of the Government Accountability Office on the companies’ plans. The House Financial Services Committee planned similar session Friday.

Officials at the White House and the Treasury and Commerce departments were scouring the plans. White House press secretary Dana Perino said it was “too early to say” whether the companies have outlined a path toward viability that justifies new federal assistance.

President-elect Barack Obama said it appeared that Big Three chiefs were returning to Washington with a “more serious set of plans.”

The bailout faces a skeptical public. Sixty-one percent oppose providing the auto companies with billions in federal assistance, according to a CNN-Opinion Research Corp. poll released Wednesday. Fifty-three percent said it would not help the economy.

Few saw any quick impact if the U.S. auto industry were to go bankrupt — only one in three said it would affect them immediately or in a year. Most of the rest said they thought it would affect them eventually, though nearly one-quarter said they would never feel its impact.

Earlier Wednesday, GM's Henderson said that bankruptcy isn’t a viable option because it would further erode consumer confidence in the automaker and “we want them to be confident in their ability to buy our cars and trucks.”

Henderson appeared on the network morning news as leaders of the UAW was immersed in intense discussions on possible givebacks for the companies at an emergency meeting in Detroit.

Henderson said that GM is ready to undertake a host of steps needed to resize. But he also said on NBC television that "to win, you've got to win with product and technology. ... And we do not want to give consumers a reason not to buy our cars and trucks."

Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. — as well as GM — have ditched their corporate jets for hybrid cars and replaced vague pleas for federal help with detailed requests for as much as $34 billion in their second crack at persuading Congress to throw them a lifeline.

Henderson acknowledged Wednesday that the initial appearance by the heads of the car makers was a public relations failure.

"Yeah, it certainly was not our finest hour," he told NBC. "We were not as clear about what we wanted to do." He also conceded that the decision by the executives to travel to Washington by private jet "was a problem" for lawmakers.
 
Quote:
GM and Chrysler said they needed an immediate infusion of government cash to last until New Year’s, and both said they could drag the entire industry down if they fail. Ford wants a $9 billion “standby line of credit” in case a competitor fails.


Boy... those sound like dramatically different circumstances between GM and Chrysler..... and Ford.

The fate for the former is looking even more bleak now....
 
I think it's a ploy by the kings that are handing out the money to wait a while, namely after this administration is out the door, to put more pressure on the big 3 (mainly GM & Chrysler) to keep the UAW w/o many modifications. We'll see real movement on this towards the end of January.

Remember, this is about votes come election time, not about bailing out the company outright. Keeping those cozy UAW benefits (such as the job bank, matching Social Security matching, 95% of salary for rest of life, etc) keeps votes come election time.

It's a power grab, I dont' see it as anything else.
 
Yep. Change is coming to Washington. Next year will be a whole new set of rules for the Big 3 and they will all be more favorable (if the automakers bend over to accept what DC wants to give them).
 
Originally Posted By: ToyotaNSaturn
I think it's a ploy by the kings that are handing out the money to wait a while, namely after this administration is out the door, to put more pressure on the big 3 (mainly GM & Chrysler) to keep the UAW w/o many modifications. We'll see real movement on this towards the end of January.

Remember, this is about votes come election time, not about bailing out the company outright. Keeping those cozy UAW benefits (such as the job bank, matching Social Security matching, 95% of salary for rest of life, etc) keeps votes come election time.

It's a power grab, I dont' see it as anything else.


Bingo. This is just smoke and mirrors. Tough talk but just talk as we all know the bailout is going to happen and that it'll be that much easier to get through after January.

Note some of the figures being thrown around. In effect the bailout will be nothing more than moving masses of taxpayer $$ directly into the UAW coffers. It takes the companies off the hook for the cash and instead makes it the burden of the taxpayers.

Our elected "servants" are trying to keep the UAW votes and promises they made to get those votes, while also keeping the rest of the voters happy enough to forget about all of this before the next election.

Good luck. I find it had to believe that Joe Average making $20 an hour and still working at 65 years old will want to hand their money to UAW workers making $30+ an hour + full medical coverage after retiring at 52.

This is why neither the union or the management of these companies wants to see a bankruptcy courtroom. This little pyramid scheme with the taxpayers as the last guys in would instantly become null and void.

And that's why a trip to BK court is what needs to happen. All new management, all new contracts with workers if they're even unionized, and none of the old agreements honored. The pensions will be honored in some percentage by the PBGC and like the rest of us common folks, they can get Medicare once they're old enough to qualify.
 
Last edited:
I can't stand listening to UAW workers being interviewed. They whine! "I'll lose my pension and my medical coverage whaaa whaaaa whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa". Get in line and join the frikkin club.
 
Quote:
Good luck. I find it had to believe that Joe Average making $20 an hour and still working at 65 years old will want to hand their money to UAW workers making $30+ an hour + full medical coverage after retiring at 52.

This is why neither the union or the management of these companies wants to see a bankruptcy courtroom. This little pyramid scheme with the taxpayers as the last guys in would instantly become null and void.

Exactly right. THE reason the Big 3 are looking for a bailout from Congress is because PRIVATE lenders are smart enough not to lend money to them. It's too iffy. Don't see that one on the nightly propaganda.

So where do you go to find morons with tons of money to spend on bad investments? Congress!
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I can't stand listening to UAW workers being interviewed. They whine! "I'll lose my pension and my medical coverage whaaa whaaaa whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa". Get in line and join the frikkin club.


Back in the 90's during the lockout at Caterpillar there were many of those people on the local news. Cat is based here in Illinois so we got a nightly dose of what was happening.

One night I watched as a guy was interviewed in front of his almost new 3 bedroom home, a new Ford Explorer and an almost new mid-size GM car sitting in the driveway.

He and his wife both worked for Cat. He kept talking about how poorly they'd been treated and what they were "owed" for being employees.

smirk2.gif


Most people in the area would have been *very* glad to trade him.
 
Last edited:
This is a laughable distraction to make the LAST BAILOUT of the money changers forgotten.

I find it hard to understand the class warfare over the UAW (there's others that work there too) to the tuns of lower double digit loans ..while now the high triple digit bail out is off your radar. There the "other class" waged war and got the benefits.

Don't be suckers for "sensibility" after the dementia has already done far more damage. Now that you're cranked up and had it ..

..this is to provide sin eaters for the angry mob ..after the real thieves have picked all the white meat off of the turkeys.
 
Oh, I also think the big 3 CEOs, if they in fact are allowed to keep their jobs, should be paid $1/year until they leave, and never receive a bonus and can never exercise or sell a stock option. PERIOD.

But come on, UAW workers are like the CEOs of the blue class working world. If they get a bail out, they're robbing us just like the big wigs.
 
I've been consistent on all of these bailouts. I've been strongly against every last one of them. I've also consistently said that every employee of the auto companies is in some portion responsible for them being broke.

I just don't see many of the white collar guys on TV talking about how much they're suffering and how the taxpayers should pick up the tab to make them feel better...
 
Well, I'd say that their insistence on negotiated bargains being fulfilled after the profits are long gone to sustain it ..therefore making what should have been a legally mandated buffering of funds that instead went to stockholders and compensation packages ...is a bit unrealistic at this point.

What you're really saying, Drew, is that it's theft to NOT be fellow victim of liars and thieves.

..but let us not forget that this situation is a theft that we want to occur since it benefits us in avoided costs.

Where's Tempest to argue that they deserve it since they fulfilled their end of the bargain? Why would he say that only the liars and thieves that took the money and ran deserve(d) to do it?? I mean, we can agree that they are/were LIARS AND THIEVES, correct?

The UAW is a painful reminder of the former status we had as a society ..and how it's been methodically dismantled over the long haul.

How about trying to pass legislation revamping the elected officials pension and medical benefit packages?
 
Originally Posted By: firemachine69

Vote out the UAW. If the autoworkers want to work another day, this may be their only glimmer of hope. The ones who walk out due to a 30% salary drop will come crawling back when they realize the equivalent wage at Toyota is still less.


Do you think Toyota or Honda or Nissan or Subaru or Hyundai or anyone would hire these spoiled whiners. I would not.
 
Why would you hire 55+ year old workers when you can hire 20 year olds? About now demographics are taking hold at Toyota and Honda too. It's just that they aren't on the hook for the employees after they're done wearing them out.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


What you're really saying, Drew, is that it's theft to NOT be fellow victim of liars and thieves.



Hey, you know I'll be the 1st to agree with you that we (the little guys (not Waterloo of course
grin2.gif
)) have been screwed over left and right by an elite class of bankers and corporatists who own you and I. But I think the UAW and it's workers in essence tried to jump on the back of the gravy train and hang on for dear life to get "theirs". Since they demanded the ability to make as much money as occupations requiring advanced degrees, they're dragging all of us down. Just on a smaller scale then the suits.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
This is a laughable distraction to make the LAST BAILOUT of the money changers forgotten.



There's truth in that statement. Think of the handful of elected officials who are now so far behind the scenes they will never be brought to justice. [censored], they'll probably be re-elected.
mad.gif
 
Quote:
Where's Tempest to argue that they deserve it since they fulfilled their end of the bargain? Why would he say that only the liars and thieves that took the money and ran deserve(d) to do it?? I mean, we can agree that they are/were LIARS AND THIEVES, correct?

What liars and thieves are you talking about?

The government has put us on the hook for 70 TRILLION dollars and they always get a pass. NO combination of private corporations has come anywhere near that, nor could they.
They have spent the S/S and medicare for other things at their whim. Private CEO's would be and have been put in jail for such things, but it seems to be perfectly acceptable for government to do it??

The real liars and thieves are self evident.
 
Quote:
What liars and thieves are you talking about?


Your heroes of achievement by any means necessary within the environment under the belief that if they got away with it, they deserved it under "Natural Law". If sheep are there for the culling ..then so be it.

Would not that be an inaccurate assessment of your belief?? If not "please explain".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom