I just bought a Honda xr650r and am on the first oil change with Rotella 15w40. I've used this in my xr600, and WR450 also. I've also used Delvac 1300 in the other bikes. I've had no clutch problems whatsoever and am wondering if anyone else uses these oils in the newer water-pumpers? It sure is cheaper than MC oil.
15W40 In dirtbikes
- Thread starter rheddog
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I don't own a dirtbike, but I do own a Suzuki cruiser. I always use either rotella 5w40 syn or the 15w40. Works a lot better then the Valvoline motorcyle oil I used to put in it. And it's far cheaper than the 5 dollar a quart motorcyle oil at the dealer.
I'll bet the Delvac 1300 is a good choice. I use M1 15-50 in all my 4 stroke bikes. I have had fantastic results with the M1 15-50. The fact that it is available at Walmart is also a plus.
Years ago, I was having camshaft wear problems and piston ring overheating on my air cooled Honda's. I was using all the "Motorcycle specific" oils and changing oil often. Yet the problems remained. After switching to M1, the problems disappeared. For sure the synthetic worked better under the high beat of air cooling.
Works great in water cooled bikes also!
Chris
Years ago, I was having camshaft wear problems and piston ring overheating on my air cooled Honda's. I was using all the "Motorcycle specific" oils and changing oil often. Yet the problems remained. After switching to M1, the problems disappeared. For sure the synthetic worked better under the high beat of air cooling.
Works great in water cooled bikes also!
Chris
rheddog,
i've tested both SRT and M1 15w50 "red cap". the SRT stayed in grade, the m1 did not. both were race tested in my YZ250F. the SRT was in the bike for the 2005 LoneStar GNCC (4th place finish) and i raced for 2:47.42 that day.
i've tested both SRT and M1 15w50 "red cap". the SRT stayed in grade, the m1 did not. both were race tested in my YZ250F. the SRT was in the bike for the 2005 LoneStar GNCC (4th place finish) and i raced for 2:47.42 that day.
jaybird,
i agree, BUT (that's a big but) to the average-joe that races. we are not gonna do a tear down to see how much (or little) wear is there.
the only guys that do that are the fullon factory teams and they don't disclose data.
so, where does that leave me/you?
doing our own work like we always do!
however, i will argue that oil that shears out of grade cannot be at the same level as one that does not (or compared to new). if all things are equal.
i agree, BUT (that's a big but) to the average-joe that races. we are not gonna do a tear down to see how much (or little) wear is there.
the only guys that do that are the fullon factory teams and they don't disclose data.
so, where does that leave me/you?
doing our own work like we always do!
however, i will argue that oil that shears out of grade cannot be at the same level as one that does not (or compared to new). if all things are equal.
Hypothetical...
Oil A has a fine basestock and resists being chewed up, yet is void of any barrier protection.
Oil B has a basestock with less integrity and shears some almost immediately, however it has been fortified with a very nice balance of barrier protection and maybe even and ester blended in.
Which one is your money on for 2-3 hours of racing?
Yes, all thing equal...but how are we to know? Especially with proprioetary formulations that may or may not effect the actual vicosity.
Oil A has a fine basestock and resists being chewed up, yet is void of any barrier protection.
Oil B has a basestock with less integrity and shears some almost immediately, however it has been fortified with a very nice balance of barrier protection and maybe even and ester blended in.
Which one is your money on for 2-3 hours of racing?
Yes, all thing equal...but how are we to know? Especially with proprioetary formulations that may or may not effect the actual vicosity.
good point.
made even harder when you take a HDEO vs super Synth.
however, we can conclude from other uoa's (cars and trucks) that both work in those situations quite well. so, therefore, viscosity comes back to the forefront.
made even harder when you take a HDEO vs super Synth.
however, we can conclude from other uoa's (cars and trucks) that both work in those situations quite well. so, therefore, viscosity comes back to the forefront.
The M1 sheared past what the w40 did? Or sheared to 40?
I have to believe that we are way too concerned with viscocity, when it comes to shared sump race bikes. Especially with the short periods of time the fluids even see our engines.
Too many things happening besides simple fluid film viscocity. And surely we can't tell by viscocity alone, the strength of the film.
I honestly think that a whole new regimine of thinking needs to be formed for racing bike fluid analysis.
We all know that the bottom line is how long the parts last, and the service they give during that lifespan.
Of course little nuances like how the transmission feels shifting with certain oils and other anecdotes can help to form some of our conclusions and choices, the micrometer and the bore guage are going to be the major tell alls at the end of the day.
That sort of measurement and diagnostic documentation just isn't happening on the passanger vehicle. So we must rely on different methods. This place is full of artisans of that craft. (quite impressive, actually)
But, we who are into performance engines know we often have the opportunity to guage and measure our internal parts.
Imagine what the database would look ike here if we started including such valuable information as wear rates at rebuilds.
I think even more comprehensive info would be gained from choosing an oil, using the best info available, and using it for the duration of a rebuild. Before and after measurements would be invaluable for us determining just what is the best fluid for "our own" purpose.
I have to believe that we are way too concerned with viscocity, when it comes to shared sump race bikes. Especially with the short periods of time the fluids even see our engines.
Too many things happening besides simple fluid film viscocity. And surely we can't tell by viscocity alone, the strength of the film.
I honestly think that a whole new regimine of thinking needs to be formed for racing bike fluid analysis.
We all know that the bottom line is how long the parts last, and the service they give during that lifespan.
Of course little nuances like how the transmission feels shifting with certain oils and other anecdotes can help to form some of our conclusions and choices, the micrometer and the bore guage are going to be the major tell alls at the end of the day.
That sort of measurement and diagnostic documentation just isn't happening on the passanger vehicle. So we must rely on different methods. This place is full of artisans of that craft. (quite impressive, actually)
But, we who are into performance engines know we often have the opportunity to guage and measure our internal parts.
Imagine what the database would look ike here if we started including such valuable information as wear rates at rebuilds.
I think even more comprehensive info would be gained from choosing an oil, using the best info available, and using it for the duration of a rebuild. Before and after measurements would be invaluable for us determining just what is the best fluid for "our own" purpose.
I'd post a uoa on this stuff if I knew how... I'm going to change at 300 miles. This bike will get Rotella and Delvac, and see hard desert riding at 30-50f anbient temps. Can the uoa be done locally? Where do I find a kit? The teardown and rebuild will hopefully not be an issue. But maybe switching from oil to oil on the same machine would be interesting for analysis.
rheddog,
Congrats on the bike! I think the only dino's I would use would be HDEO's(I like Delo 400). I use Castrol Syntec or Delo 400 in my 400EX. Last fall, I went on a trip up in NH and ran regular dino 10W40, figuring it was cold out and my riding was more scenic than hard. Well, that trip turned the dino into H2O and my bike started to smoke a little when I came home. I did a ten minute rinse with fresh 10W40 and then switched back to Syntec. No more smoke. My wife's '03 Rancher350 runs M1 15W50 and loves it.
I think a HDEO or synthetic would be fine for you. I also think the Chevron site recommends using their delo 15W40 for cycle use.
Congrats on the bike! I think the only dino's I would use would be HDEO's(I like Delo 400). I use Castrol Syntec or Delo 400 in my 400EX. Last fall, I went on a trip up in NH and ran regular dino 10W40, figuring it was cold out and my riding was more scenic than hard. Well, that trip turned the dino into H2O and my bike started to smoke a little when I came home. I did a ten minute rinse with fresh 10W40 and then switched back to Syntec. No more smoke. My wife's '03 Rancher350 runs M1 15W50 and loves it.
I think a HDEO or synthetic would be fine for you. I also think the Chevron site recommends using their delo 15W40 for cycle use.
rheddog,
no idea about local for you.
however, blackstone will send you the kits for free.
you can get them here -> http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
they have done 15 uoa's for me and number 16 (havoline 10w40 sl) is ready to be sent off to see how it held up in the Gator Bait enduro last sunday.
no idea about local for you.
however, blackstone will send you the kits for free.
you can get them here -> http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
they have done 15 uoa's for me and number 16 (havoline 10w40 sl) is ready to be sent off to see how it held up in the Gator Bait enduro last sunday.
Delo 400 in my Rmz-450.I Did use the Delvac 1300 the first 20 hrs. The delvac has a HTHS of 4.3 excellent for a dino oil that gets changed out with regular changes. I do however like the Delo 400 package a little better, PERSONAL preference. I would love to know the HTHS# of the delo 400,I stand by the Delvac and Delo with frequent changes vs synthetic with extended changes ANY DAY!!!!!!!
I am not comfortable running any oil that isn't Motorcycle Specific, API SG/JASO MA in a bike with an integrated engine/transmission. At least with an MA motorcycle oil you are assured that it contains high pressure additives that are intended to be thrashed between the teeth of gears........not so with a car/truck oil!
My personal choice is Maxima Extra, Ester Synthetic which has a superb additive package!
My personal choice is Maxima Extra, Ester Synthetic which has a superb additive package!
Some of the motorcycle specific oils do not even come close to HDEO'S and yes even synthetics. Take a look at UOA AND VOA. Maxima oils not included, this is one oil company that produces fine products. I still believe in frequent changes with a fine dino over extended changes with a synthetic.
Maxima throws the kitchen sink at the add pack.
(they even admit it)
Not a very synergistic approach. But it sure does make the oil expensive.
Just what designation assures us we are getting high pressure additives that car oils aren't getting, Wayne? MA, or SG?
Enlighten us.
I've noticed that in each and every post you've made here, you end up trying to sell folks on Maxima fluids. Do you work for Maxima, or did their product info sheets amaze and astound you?
(they even admit it)
Not a very synergistic approach. But it sure does make the oil expensive.
Just what designation assures us we are getting high pressure additives that car oils aren't getting, Wayne? MA, or SG?
Enlighten us.
I've noticed that in each and every post you've made here, you end up trying to sell folks on Maxima fluids. Do you work for Maxima, or did their product info sheets amaze and astound you?
SG is a good start! Later car oils (eg. SL and SM) CAN'T have the level of additives that SG has because it might poison the catalytic converters of later model cars. JASO MA4T has its own requirements, and the better blenders will take it from there and add their own. Plus the MA designation insures that you won't have any wet clutch problems, so what do you have to lose??? http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm
And think about it, what "car/truck" oil manufacturer is going to put in a huge additive package (which they can't do anyway to be SL or SM), when it would just make if more expensive and less price competitive against other brands on the shelf there at Wally World???
A few years ago, I realized that I knew nothing about oil! I just used Penzoil because that's what my dad used and it was cheap. Pretty sad for someone who is a biochemist. I do medical research, and no I don't work for Maxima. I just feel that along with Redline, they are the best blenders out there. (Redline for my trucks only. They don't make any JASO MA oils, but I wouldn't hesitate to run Redline in the engine side of my 450R.)
After going through both a "Rotella" and "Mobil 1" phase, I did more study and concluded that the ESTERS are the best oils there are! They put this stuff in jet turbines, and don't change it for two years........
http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lubenews/LubeNews2002.pdf
[ February 03, 2006, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Kelln ]
And think about it, what "car/truck" oil manufacturer is going to put in a huge additive package (which they can't do anyway to be SL or SM), when it would just make if more expensive and less price competitive against other brands on the shelf there at Wally World???
A few years ago, I realized that I knew nothing about oil! I just used Penzoil because that's what my dad used and it was cheap. Pretty sad for someone who is a biochemist. I do medical research, and no I don't work for Maxima. I just feel that along with Redline, they are the best blenders out there. (Redline for my trucks only. They don't make any JASO MA oils, but I wouldn't hesitate to run Redline in the engine side of my 450R.)
After going through both a "Rotella" and "Mobil 1" phase, I did more study and concluded that the ESTERS are the best oils there are! They put this stuff in jet turbines, and don't change it for two years........
http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lubenews/LubeNews2002.pdf
[ February 03, 2006, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Kelln ]
"I did more study and concluded that the ESTERS are the best oils there are!"
ah, but you have yet to prove anything!
ah, but you have yet to prove anything!
sunruh-You seem to be a UOA junkie! For the rest of us, the only "proof" we need is all our extremely high mileage vehicles that are doing just fine.
Wayne, I read the link. Why does it say at the bottom, "Wayne Kelln doesn't understand Motor Oil"?
Interesting this article infers that Oil Analysis is only suitable for deep pocket racing teams. It doesn't say Oil Analysis isn't useful, just that individuals don't need to do it.
I'm guessing you either wrote the article, or simply believe it to be very accurate. Don't know when it was written, it must have been in 2004? Didn't SM come out in 2004? The article states that SL is the latest designation, of course, it is SM.
As far as the comment about Sunruh being an Oil Analysis junkie, and long mileage results being good enough for the rest of us, I agree in part. How does 85,000 miles on a Honda Shadow 750 run entirely on Delo 15-40? Still doesn't burn oil. I really doubt that using more expensive (by at least a factor of 5, maybe as much as 8 times more expensive) Maxima, that I'd get "better" results.
But, I agree with Sunruh that UOA can be very useful. I cannot imagine UOA would have shown bad wear numbers for the Delo, or I wouldn't have gotten such good results. OTOH, if Delo did give bad UOA results, it would have given me a chance to change to something like Maxima to see if I got better results BEFORE I developed a significant wear problem. Nothing at all wrong with that strategy.
Interesting this article infers that Oil Analysis is only suitable for deep pocket racing teams. It doesn't say Oil Analysis isn't useful, just that individuals don't need to do it.
I'm guessing you either wrote the article, or simply believe it to be very accurate. Don't know when it was written, it must have been in 2004? Didn't SM come out in 2004? The article states that SL is the latest designation, of course, it is SM.
As far as the comment about Sunruh being an Oil Analysis junkie, and long mileage results being good enough for the rest of us, I agree in part. How does 85,000 miles on a Honda Shadow 750 run entirely on Delo 15-40? Still doesn't burn oil. I really doubt that using more expensive (by at least a factor of 5, maybe as much as 8 times more expensive) Maxima, that I'd get "better" results.
But, I agree with Sunruh that UOA can be very useful. I cannot imagine UOA would have shown bad wear numbers for the Delo, or I wouldn't have gotten such good results. OTOH, if Delo did give bad UOA results, it would have given me a chance to change to something like Maxima to see if I got better results BEFORE I developed a significant wear problem. Nothing at all wrong with that strategy.
That article is a reprint from MX Action, and is a couple of years old. Hence no SM yet.
A racer is going to do frequent rebuilds anyway, so he is in his engine often, constantly monitoring what is wearing. While a UOA is certainly useful, you do get your bases covered by another method.
The recreational rider on the other hand, isn't going to be in his engine and neither is he going to bother with a UOA. Nothing driving him to "experiment around" and try different oils here, and see which gives the best UOA. So, he had darn well better pick the finest oil money can buy from the get go!
A racer is going to do frequent rebuilds anyway, so he is in his engine often, constantly monitoring what is wearing. While a UOA is certainly useful, you do get your bases covered by another method.
The recreational rider on the other hand, isn't going to be in his engine and neither is he going to bother with a UOA. Nothing driving him to "experiment around" and try different oils here, and see which gives the best UOA. So, he had darn well better pick the finest oil money can buy from the get go!
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