110 year payback

[Tempest]

Quote:
The museum wanted a solar system to support its educational mission and cut energy costs as well as the building's carbon footprint. But the payout period would have been too long to make it financially feasible.

"We looked at first installing it ourselves, and without any of the incentive programs, it was a 110-year payout," said [Dave Noel, vice president of operations and chief technology officer for the museum]. "The [museum's] board was supportive of the program, but said it had to make sense financially."

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/131747.html
This is a bang up job with tax dollars.

 

[Steve S]

Tax $$$ are free money!

 

[simple_gifts]

Dude, you are a fountain of optimism.

 

[oilyriser]

Solar heat has a payback much less than its lifespan.

Government has to pour money into useless projects, so they put PV panels in buildings in the middle of cities were cheap grid power is plentiful. This increases the price of panels so the doctor in rural Africa can't afford one to run his vaccine storage fridge.

Even more ironic is that nobody even knows you have solar panels, because they're up on the roof where you can't see them.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Even more ironic is that nobody even knows you have solar panels, because they're up on the roof where you can't see them.

That's why you have to spend even more tax payer dollars on a propaganda campaign to make sure the people know their other tax money is being used on "green" projects on the roof....

 

[Shannow]

A solar powered chemical injection pump station was installed at a remote location at work the other day.

Compared to the cost of running cables/overhead lines etc., it's ROI was almost instantaneous.

 

[Tempest]

What happens to said pump on a cloudy day or night?

 

[oilyriser]

Batteries.

 

[Shannow]

'zackerly.

The pump and solar panels are sized that overnight, and on overcast days draws down from the battery.

It's sort of an energy "budget", living within it's means type thing.

 

[Tempest]

Must be a fairly small pump. The local sporting clays range uses solar panels w/batteries to power their traps, but these are short/intermittent use devices and we get lots of sun.

 

[Shannow]

Yeah, it's a chemical dosing pump, but it's still solar powered, and cost a tiny percentage of the cost of supplying it any "traditional" way.

Not all solar is bunk.

Some situations it's the most logical and sensible way of doing it.

 

[Shannow]

But one of my colleagues (a smart cookie too he is), is thinking of using his bonus (should we get it) to install a solar system on his house.

With the the utility buying his electricity at the same price they sell him electricity, and installing a second meter gratis, his payback is 2-1/2 years...Govt funds about 40% of the cost, but even if they didn't that would blow the payback out to 4 years.

The power supply utility love it. They buy off him at 13.5c/Kw, and sell it for around 15c. It is also another few Kw that they aren't exposed to potential $10/Kw during market peak conditions when demand starts to meet supply...and it materially lowers the peaking on the big gens.

Some of the more remote places out here have 100% solar with battery storage...and an energy "budget".

Might cost them $10,000 per pole to run a lead to their property, full house set-up solar for $30k.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Might cost them $10,000 per pole to run a lead to their property, full house set-up solar for $30k.

In remote situations like this and your pump, it does make sense. I'm seeing more and more high end RVs with panels on the roof for the same reason.

It does not make sense for grid power, however.

 

[Shannow]

Tempest, it should be part of the grid, and so should wind.

IMO, cheap (a couple of generations old) solar cells should be on every roof that has a correct aspect.

Farmers augmenting their income by installing wind plants is also a good thing to increase the viability of our food supply.

It only makes sense not to when you get your energy for nothing by digging up finite reserves of ancient solar energy.

 

[oilyriser]

Where do you get a PV installation for 13.5 cents/kwhr??? Last time I checked, just the panels alone cost around 30. Add installation and inverters, and it rises way above any grid power even during peaks.

Wholesale price of power here right now at 4:25 am is -1.1 cents/kwhr. Yes they are paying people to take power. It's been hitting negatives all week long, since we're between the heating and cooling seasons, and a lot of factories are cutting production.

 

[Shannow]

Our peaks are capped at $10 per KwHr (normal wholesale is generally around 3c, and can go (and has gone) down to -$1/KwHr.

So there are periods that the retailers are buying a Kwhr of electricity at $10, and selling it at 13.5c.

They hate it....and I've never seen such an even occur outside daylight hours, due to the usual grid load profiles.

So in addition to the around 40% federal Govt subsidy, they are willing to assist people to install capacity so that they can at least buy some watts at 13.5c, and sell at 13.5c, rather than be exposed to $10 to sell at 13.5c.

Plus, there are NGACs (greenhouse credits) per MWHr produced "green" which are credited to the installation

Basically, he will be using the grid as his battery. He'll be lowering the peaks. And getting paid for it to offset his costs.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: oilyriser


Government has to pour money into useless projects, so they put PV panels in buildings in the middle of cities were cheap grid power is plentiful. This increases the price of panels so the doctor in rural Africa can't afford one to run his vaccine storage fridge.



Solar panels follow Moore's Law of silicon chips and get better & cheaper all the time, as long as production is increasing.
Quote:


Even more ironic is that nobody even knows you have solar panels, because they're up on the roof where you can't see them.


Your real estate tax assessor knows via satellite photos. Some places require permits, and, yup, tax the improvement.

 

[oilyriser]

Moore's Law worked because chips were being made smaller and smaller. PV cells take a certain amount of energy to make, and you're not ever going to see a 99% reduction, like we've seen in the size of ICs. Stimulating consumption raises prices. There was plenty of demand for solar cells without government involvement.

It's just another Ethanol.

 

[eljefino]

Solar power for houses works. It's just implausible to use it for electricity. It heats domestic hot water very efficiently. (cost vs payback.)

If you unplug your TV at night it's probably equivalent to $1000 worth of solar cells.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Our peaks are capped at $10 per KwHr (normal wholesale is generally around 3c, and can go (and has gone) down to -$1/KwHr.

So there are periods that the retailers are buying a Kwhr of electricity at $10, and selling it at 13.5c.

They hate it....and I've never seen such an even occur outside daylight hours, due to the usual grid load profiles.

So in addition to the around 40% federal Govt subsidy, they are willing to assist people to install capacity so that they can at least buy some watts at 13.5c, and sell at 13.5c, rather than be exposed to $10 to sell at 13.5c.

Plus, there are NGACs (greenhouse credits) per MWHr produced "green" which are credited to the installation

Basically, he will be using the grid as his battery. He'll be lowering the peaks. And getting paid for it to offset his costs.

Sounds like a bunch of subsidies (tax dollars taken from someone else) make it possible. Imagine if EVERYONE took advantage of this at one time. You would run out of other people's money.