0W20 vs 5W20 base oils

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted by CT8
What do we mean by higher quality base stocks? Film strength? Freezing start performance, flash point etc?


Just higher quality ingredients I guess. It's just something I had read on here several times that to achieve a 0W rating,higher quality base stocks have to be used.

 

[farrarfan1]

I'm curious about the Pennzoil Platinum since they use PurePlus gtl in all of their synthetics. If the 0W-20 is actually somehow "better" than the 5W-20 I'd use it in my Ram, but Pennzoil is probably the only ones that really know if the base stock is all the same or not.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by TrainingPolicy
This is just my .02 but my 2005 Accord ran 5w20 its entire life and I didn't have any problems and once it hit ~200k miles I switched it to 0w20. Because I always heard that 0w20 had a better base oil, also Honda stated that the cars could be ran on it. The Accord is now at 240k miles and still run great. I don't believe in the dissent that thinner oils are 'killing' engines.

That's not the question here. 0W-20 is not thinner than 5W-20 except at about -35 or below when both are massively thick.

This is not a "thick vs. thin" argument thread. Try Mr. Barnard in Room 12.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by Ignatius

I have not had any issues using 0w20 in my Subaru or Hyundai GDI to date other than an oil consumption issue with the Subaru that is Subaru openly acknowledges in the owners manual.

A 2012 Fozzie I care for did have that oil consumption issue but it wasn't enough for the local Subaru dealer to bat an eye brow. I saw consumption at the most with M1 AFE at 1qt/2K. I've been running Idemitsu's 0W-20 green label and saw an improvement in consumption to 1qt/4K.

I'm willing to try out M1 EP 0W-20 in this engine.

 

[Ignatius]

Originally Posted by nthach
I'm willing to try out M1 EP 0W-20 in this engine.


I have had good results with M1 EP 0W-20 in the past and the main reason I have used other oils is because of getting deals I felt like I should not pass up on.

Now I hope that anyone who reads this is sitting down, a guy who I have a lot of confidence in as far as his expertise of engines (Subaru in particular) and oils has had the best results using... Royal Purple! I know that is a frowned upon brand here but I might try some out the next time I buy oil for the Subie.

 

[bluesubie]

Further to what has already been said, and also provided by OVERKILL, Gohkan posted a good Lubes 'N' Greases article in the Interesting Articles forum.

The synthetics are coming
Quote
A "good portion" of the market also complies with General Motors' Dexos1 specification, which requires 13 percent volatility or lower. It's possible to formulate an SAE 0W-20 API SP oil with standard API Group III base oil, but to make a Dexos-approved product, the formulation must include "Group III+ in significant amounts, or even some Group IV," he said.

Dexos1 Gen 3, which is expected to make its debut soon, will clamp down volatility even further to 12.5 percent, according to Khaled Zreik, GM's powertrain & vehicle fluids technical specialist, who also spoke at the conference.
"The shift from Dexos1 Gen 2 to Gen 3 will increase the concentration of either Group III+ or PAO—it has to," Castanien said. "The only way to get that Noack down is to put in something less volatile, and I expect we'll see a shift to Group III+."


So generally better base stocks (0W-20) vs. usually lower volatility and less viscosity modifiers (5W-20). And now for the $60,000 question. Does it matter? In some applications and/or conditions, maybe it does (thinking of myself since I'm running 0W-20 in a turbocharged Subaru)?

 

[Ignatius]

Originally Posted by bluesubie
Further to what has already been said, and also provided by OVERKILL, Gohkan posted a good Lubes 'N' Greases article in the Interesting Articles forum.

The synthetics are coming
Quote
A "good portion" of the market also complies with General Motors' Dexos1 specification, which requires 13 percent volatility or lower. It's possible to formulate an SAE 0W-20 API SP oil with standard API Group III base oil, but to make a Dexos-approved product, the formulation must include "Group III+ in significant amounts, or even some Group IV," he said.

Dexos1 Gen 3, which is expected to make its debut soon, will clamp down volatility even further to 12.5 percent, according to Khaled Zreik, GM's powertrain & vehicle fluids technical specialist, who also spoke at the conference.
"The shift from Dexos1 Gen 2 to Gen 3 will increase the concentration of either Group III+ or PAO—it has to," Castanien said. "The only way to get that Noack down is to put in something less volatile, and I expect we'll see a shift to Group III+."


So generally better base stocks (0W-20) vs. usually lower volatility and less viscosity modifiers (5W-20). And now for the $60,000 question. Does it matter? In some applications and/or conditions, maybe it does (thinking of myself since I'm running 0W-20 in a turbocharged Subaru)?

The reason why I decided to try out synthetic 5w20 in the first place was because the SN Plus versions of Valvoline Synthetic 5w20 have the lowest NOACK ratings for a 20 weight oil next to Ravenol. Not only that but according to the work Gokhan did on VII content, Valvoline was the best brand across the board with its synthetic 5w20 oils leading the way.

So maybe it is just that Valvoline has figured out how to make an incredibly solid synthetic 5w20?

To me it seems like if 0w20 is recommended for an engine it has much to do with the general composition and contents associated with 0w20 oil more than how similar it may look on paper versus a 5w20 even if the 5w20 may be considered better in some ways.

 

[DGXR]

People get too hung up on base oils. The most important thing is performance of the finished lubricant. Base oils do matter, but they are not as important as people make them out to be, especially here on BITOG. Let's say a certain "full synthetic" motor oil has both Gp III and Gp IV base oils. Can we say across the board that this oil will not perform as well as another motor oil with strictly Gp IV base stocks? Doesn't the additive package have a major influence on the answer? And doesn't the application (engine) matter quite a lot as well? The whole "best oil" conversation is very tired and needs to be put to rest. There is no single best oil.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by DGXR
People get too hung up on base oils. The most important thing is performance of the finished lubricant. Base oils do matter, but they are not as important as people make them out to be, especially here on BITOG. Let's say a certain "full synthetic" motor oil has both Gp III and Gp IV base oils. Can we say across the board that this oil will not perform as well as another motor oil with strictly Gp IV base stocks? Doesn't the additive package have a major influence on the answer? And doesn't the application (engine) matter quite a lot as well? The whole "best oil" conversation is very tired and needs to be put to rest. There is no single best oil.






Comment of the day.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I guess it would seem to build a superior product,you'd start with the best possible foundation aka base oil,and work your way up from there.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by Ignatius

To me it seems like if 0w20 is recommended for an engine it has much to do with the general composition and contents associated with 0w20 oil more than how similar it may look on paper versus a 5w20 even if the 5w20 may be considered better in some ways.


Good point!

 

[kschachn]

The only thing you are guaranteed to get with a 0W-20 as opposed to a 5W-20 oil is that the 0W rated oil will pass the requirements for a 0W oil in terms of pumpability at very low temperatures.

 

[OilReport99]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by DGXR
People get too hung up on base oils. The most important thing is performance of the finished lubricant. Base oils do matter, but they are not as important as people make them out to be, especially here on BITOG. Let's say a certain "full synthetic" motor oil has both Gp III and Gp IV base oils. Can we say across the board that this oil will not perform as well as another motor oil with strictly Gp IV base stocks? Doesn't the additive package have a major influence on the answer? And doesn't the application (engine) matter quite a lot as well? The whole "best oil" conversation is very tired and needs to be put to rest. There is no single best oil.






Comment of the day.

+1

 

[TrainingPolicy]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by TrainingPolicy
This is just my .02 but my 2005 Accord ran 5w20 its entire life and I didn't have any problems and once it hit ~200k miles I switched it to 0w20. Because I always heard that 0w20 had a better base oil, also Honda stated that the cars could be ran on it. The Accord is now at 240k miles and still run great. I don't believe in the dissent that thinner oils are 'killing' engines.

That's not the question here. 0W-20 is not thinner than 5W-20 except at about -35 or below when both are massively thick.

This is not a "thick vs. thin" argument thread. Try Mr. Barnard in Room 12.


You are absolutely correct, this is not an argument thread at all. I was stating that I ran 5W20 then switched to 0W20 and have noticed ZERO change even while at a high mileage where typically people run a 'thicker' oil. Which is saying that I am not sure if the base oils are 'better' per say, but in MOST application they are interchangeable and you wont notice any difference. The last remark was just me thinking of a previous thread, I should have left it off but you seem to have taken the bait. I am glad to see we are grown adults having a discussion and you see the need to make snide remarks. Good day.

 

[kschachn]

No problem, TrainingPolicy. I'm not going to feed you back.

 

[Gene K]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Do 0W20 oils always have higher quality base oils vs 5W20 oils (as I've read on here before)? Or is this a myth?


Will likely vary blender to blender. With XOM, if we can trust the MSDS sheets, then yes, there's a clear correlation with the 0w-20's in AFE, EP and AP all having significantly more PAO than the 5w-20's.

Regular M1:

M1 EP:

M1 AP:

I see some really interesting questions there.

M1 FS 5W-20 = 25% GIV + 25% GIV + ?
M1 AFE 0W-20 = 35% GIV + 35% GIII + 15% GTL +?

If the answer to that question is GV + Add Pack is 0W-20 really superior as far as base stock? I could see where 0W-20 was depending more on VII to increase mpg.

 

[SunnySky]

Not sure if people are still interested in this old thread. Just looking at the concept, I don't see any drawbacks from using 0W20 on an automobile that specifies 5W20. On the contrary, I only see positives for the switch: less cold start wear, and more gain in MPG, no matter how slightly it is. Of course, assume both oils come from the same brand.

Did I miss something?

 

[Superbuick96]

I am glad someone made this thread as I was just thinking about this the other day after having experimented for the first time using a synthetic 5w20 in an engine that requires 0w20. I think it will be my first and last time filling my sump with synthetic 5w20. Here is what I posted on another website:

I wanted to post a reflection on using synthetic 5w20 for two weeks and 1000 miles in my 2018 Outback 2.5L engine with 100,500 total miles on it now. Of note the weather has been very hot and humid by local standards, 90 degrees fahrenheit.

A few things I have noticed are that my engine is running much louder and hotter than it ever has as a recall when I have used 0w20 in the past. With 0w20 the oil temperature was on average around 210-215 degrees normal warmed up operating temperature. With 5w20 it has been at least 10 degrees higher, anywhere between 220-230 degrees. I have also noticed a little more start up noise that sounds like timing chain clatter but it only lasts for a second or two but it is noticeable to my ear, this could just be a timing chain in need of a tensioner though.

So like with the experiment in which I tried out using a 5 quart jug of 5w30 during my last oil change interval, I will probably just be running 5w20 one time and then go back to using 0w20 noting any differences. I have a jug of Mobil 1 EP 0w20 and eleven quarts of Valvoline Synthetic Maxlife 0w20 on deck.

Again I am not knocking the usage of 5w20 but at this time I choose to use it on an experimental basis to gauge the results, for this car/engine it had much do with an oil consumption issue it has developed that I am tracking.[/hh

[/QUOTE]

I am glad someone made this thread as I was just thinking about this the other day after having experimented for the first time using a synthetic 5w20 in an engine that requires 0w20. I think it will be my first and last time filling my sump with synthetic 5w20. Here is what I posted on another website:

I wanted to post a reflection on using synthetic 5w20 for two weeks and 1000 miles in my 2018 Outback 2.5L engine with 100,500 total miles on it now. Of note the weather has been very hot and humid by local standards, 90 degrees fahrenheit.

A few things I have noticed are that my engine is running much louder and hotter than it ever has as a recall when I have used 0w20 in the past. With 0w20 the oil temperature was on average around 210-215 degrees normal warmed up operating temperature. With 5w20 it has been at least 10 degrees higher, anywhere between 220-230 degrees. I have also noticed a little more start up noise that sounds like timing chain clatter but it only lasts for a second or two but it is noticeable to my ear, this could just be a timing chain in need of a tensioner though.

So like with the experiment in which I tried out using a 5 quart jug of 5w30 during my last oil change interval, I will probably just be running 5w20 one time and then go back to using 0w20 noting any differences. I have a jug of Mobil 1 EP 0w20 and eleven quarts of Valvoline Synthetic Maxlife 0w20 on deck.

Again I am not knocking the usage of 5w20 but at this time I choose to use it on an experimental basis to gauge the results, for this car/engine it had much do with an oil consumption issue it has developed that I am tracking.

That timing chain clatter you briefly here from your Subaru seems to be a Subaru quirk. My 18 Forested has done it since day 1. I've researched the internet and this seems to be a universally shared trait of the Boxer engine. Some people say this noise should. Never happen, and its wear happening in real time, others dismiss it as nothing to worry about. I don't know what to believe, but try not to worry about it. My dealership of course dismissed the noise under warranty.

 

[kschachn]

Not sure if people are still interested in this old thread. Just looking at the concept, I don't see any drawbacks from using 0W20 on an automobile that specifies 5W20. On the contrary, I only see positives for the switch: less cold start wear, and more gain in MPG, no matter how slightly it is. Of course, assume both oils come from the same brand.

Did I miss something?

There is no more nor less startup wear between the two and it isn’t guaranteed the 0W rated oil will be more efficient or not.

 

[SunnySky]

There is no more nor less startup wear between the two and it isn’t guaranteed the 0W rated oil will be more efficient or not.

Then the question is why some cars call for 5W20, not 0W20? Or vise versa?