06 Saab/Subaru 92x/Impreza 2.5i Redline 5w30 10k

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
77
Location
Columbus, OH
Redline 5w30 in a 2006 Saab 92x 2.5i, which is actually a re-badged Subaru Impreza 2.5i. 10,000 mile OCI. Car is a commuter, driven 6 days a week or more. Daily commute is 30min each way with no traffic. Typically sees heavy stop-and-go traffic on the way home, making that leg of the trip take up to 2 hours. Driven pretty hard for fun at other times.

We've never been able to figure out where the silicon is coming from on this engine since the intake tract is buttoned up tight.

6462603173_70e0b13f3e_b.jpg
 
IMO Redline is the best stuff on the market. I wouldn't run any oil to 12K like Blackstone recommends. I can't help but wonder what the TAN would be at 10K.
 
12k miles isnt that bad if its crazy highway and 6-8 months.

I could never do it.. I dont get the oil warm enough on a daily basis in the winter.

I do think at 10k you got your moneys worth.
 
Last edited:
I think the 10k OCI is the sweet spot. Still gives you a margin of error just in case you have some 'hard miles' or whatever. I'd want to see a TAN for a 10k OCI, though.

As for the silicon, was the motor ever opened up or serviced? Think liquid gasket/RTV-type stuff. Otherwise I'd say maybe the air filter isn't the greatest?
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
I think the 10k OCI is the sweet spot. Still gives you a margin of error just in case you have some 'hard miles' or whatever. I'd want to see a TAN for a 10k OCI, though.

As for the silicon, was the motor ever opened up or serviced? Think liquid gasket/RTV-type stuff. Otherwise I'd say maybe the air filter isn't the greatest?

I knew to ask for a TBN, but I didn't know I should also ask for a TAN. What is the difference in what they tell you?

The silicon was high from the start. No major work had been done on the engine at the time of the first 3 UOAs on that report (2/8/11 and earlier). Immediately prior to the 5/25/11 UOA, the engine was torn apart for a head gasket service.

Interestingly, on 5/25/11, the engine was idled for 10 minutes with no oil in it. Oops. The wife thought I had filled it and told me to start it to let it idle. I figured if she wanted me to start it, she must have filled it. Needless to say, we have stricter communication policies now!
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
12k miles isnt that bad if its crazy highway and 6-8 months.

I could never do it.. I dont get the oil warm enough on a daily basis in the winter.

I do think at 10k you got your moneys worth.


Eh, if the lab results are good with the OP's driving style / conditions, i don't see why he couldn't extent to 12k and squeeze a bit more outta the expensive lube.

That said, with 2 quarts of top off oil added, i think the TBN is pretty low. With no top off, it would be shot, so the addition of oil is what's keeping this lube active.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
That said, with 2 quarts of top off oil added, i think the TBN is pretty low. With no top off, it would be shot, so the addition of oil is what's keeping this lube active.

2nd quart was added at least a month before the sample was taken.


Redline is also well known for having a very low TBN to begin with. 2.9 isn't that low for this oil.
 
The wear numbers are good for 10k mile exposure; 12k miles is possible, if the TBN and top-off's can sustain it.

I'm not familiar with what the sump capacity is, but the cost of top-off's surely is skewing the ROI.

Is the RL worth it? I doubt it at this point. Yes, you're getting greatt wear numbers, but at what cost? RL is probably one of the most expensive oils out there; probably 3x or 4x more money per quart over a decent brand-name dino oil. You went probably 2x the OCI distance, for perhaps 4x the cost (including top offs). That's not a good deal; you'll never reach the ROI. If you held your OCI to 5k miles, and ran a good quality dino oil, you'd be money ahead, and still probably have wear and TBN retention just as good, with less "top off" costs. The alternative is to push the OCI out to 20k miles or more, to at least break even. Clearly the wear would likely be in check, but the TBN would be at risk, and the top-offs would continue to push the cost up.

I have no idea if you "got your money's worth" because I don't know what you paid for the oil. At times, some guys come up with screamin' close out deals or get "free" oil from a buddy. But for us "normal" folks that pay shelf prices for oils would really struggle to make this work fiscally.
 
Last edited:
I am not running Redline to try to save money. Even if it's more expensive, it still has desirable qualities. If I ran a good quality dino, yes, it'd be cheaper, but I'd have a considerably lower HTHS and MUCH lower tolerance for heat. Both of those are critical.

Plus, I pay for Redline what you pay for Pennzoil Platinum, so it works out ok.
 
I, and quite a lot of other people, would argue that HTHS is the single most important characteristic of an oil. I'm not willing to compromise on HTHS just to cheap out.


The engine is liquid cooled but there's no direct cooling for the oil. Sustained oil temps over 230F are normal in day-to-day driving. I've driven the oil temp over 280F while... hurrying... a bit before realizing that, even with Redline in there, I needed to back off and let it cool down.

Dino won't cut it.
 
I, and quite a lot of other people, would argue that unless you actually tried a quality dino under the same circumstances, you cannot say for sure if the din oil would "cut it" or not. Further, there is no "single most important characteristic" of oil. Nearly any product in any market is a compromise of lots of different characteristics to achieve a maximum result on the largest preponderance of traits, with the fewest concessions. HTHS isn't the ONE magic bullet that a Subie lives or dies by.

Any oil, regardless of the base stock and additive package, can either be over or under utilized. The question is:
Where is the ROI for a safe level of operation for any given sump load?
Would you run this oil load for 50k miles? Probably not. So even the RL has practical limits. You have no idea where those limits are, because you've not pushed the OCIs out to find them. All you know is that you got low wear in a slightly extended OCI. Low wear on a "per mile" basis can be achieved by several different methods. Your route is but only one.

I do not dispute that this series of UOAs shows great wear. I simply point out that you could likely get a similar wear rate for a lot less money. Why don't you put the hard numbers to it and show us what it cost per 1k miles to achieve that wear rate?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Further, there is no "single most important characteristic" of oil.

HTHS is the characteristic most highly correlated to wear when measured properly (meaning before and after mass of the parts).

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
You have no idea where those limits are, because you've not pushed the OCIs out to find them.

What on earth makes you think that I haven't? Of course I proved first that the cheaper oils weren't cutting it! I've already done sufficient experimentation to find the use limits for our use cases for several cheaper Group III oils. I'm now in the process of finding out where the boundaries are for Redline. I can tell you that we're already noticing a change in the mechanical failure statistics.

The nice thing when you're sitting on top of nearly three quarters of a million fleet miles of data is that you can get good baselines for what "average" is for your usage.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
All you know is that you got low wear in a slightly extended OCI.

No, I don't know this, and neither do you. You cannot tell anything about normal (non-catastrophic) wear from a UOA. What I can tell is that the oil itself is surviving better and that the increased MTBF on certain parts implies that the lubrication is more effective.

Quote:
Why don't you put the hard numbers to it and show us what it cost per 1k miles to achieve that wear rate?

I assume you're not going to let me make it a fair fight and add in the total cost of repairs for when motors have been destroyed due to lubrication failures from heat that the Redline is surviving? If I do add those in, do I use what it would cost a normal person to do the repairs or what it actually cost me?



You really need to not assume you know what's going on with the cars I service better than I do. It's not like what I post here represents the sum-total of all the data I have about these cars.
 
Last edited:
A UOA isn’t a “toy” to see who can get the lowest wear. A UOA is a tool to see how far you can extend any sump load to a reasonably safe level of operation.

In a well designed and applied maintenance program, you set acceptable limits for wear data and other characteristics such as contaminant loads, and then operate the lube up to, but not past, those limits. You may have 20 or 30 different traits you’re following, and any one (or combination thereof) could push the lube past an acceptable limit and warrant an OCI. It might be soot, it might be vis, it might be wear metals, FP, etc.

But the key is to set safe operational acceptable limits, and then operate as long as practically possible while staying under those limits. The mistake that nearly all people make when reading (or should I say “misreading”) a UOA is that they think the lowest wear numbers means it’s a winner. The goal is NOT to get the lowest wear number; the goal is to extend the OCI out as far as safely possible and stay within acceptable wear parameters as well as total magnitude limits. You may have a great Fe wear rate, but if you’ve run the lube for 100k miles and the Fe is at 477ppm, you’ve over-extended the lube. Wear rates are only part of the story; total load limits also come into play. To truly manage the maintenance program, one must track both wear rates and overall wear, along with the contaminants and other traits. Depending upon each situation, one sets levels of condemnation for each trait; xx ppm of Fe, yy ppm of Cu, zz.z of Vis, xx% of soot, etc, etc. Until you reach one of those, it’s safe to continue to operate the lube. TOTAL WEAR speaks to a condemation level; WEAR RATES speak to operational fiscal choices. They are related, but they are NOT the same.

If lowest wear numbers were always the goal, one can easily artificially augment the wear with things like shorter OCIs and top-offs, to bounce the numbers around as desired. Wear rates are NOT constant; they are reasonably predictable in long term studies, but they are NOT linear by any means. They have parabolic curve responses shortly after an OCI, then they flatten out, and then escalate once again after the base stock and additive package are compromised.

To that goal, there are several different approaches. One is synthetics (often teamed with bypass filtration) and the other is shorter OCIs with less expensive oil and filters. Either method can keep the attributes within a safe operating zone. So the real issue becomes one of cost; which method is “cheaper”?

You mentioned HTHS as if it were the golden egg. There is a similar parable that will not die in the HDEO arena. People often get very squeamish around a loss of viscosity, especially in a PSD, but the actual evidence of wear shows there is no real correlation between a loss of grade (from a 40 to a 30) and an escalation of wear. The myth dies hard, but the facts are there for those that look at them. I would suggest that the same can be said for HTHS ratings. Yes, they are important. But the issue is one of use factor. Oil with a lower HTHS may not last quite as long in the sump, but that does not mean it degrades and goes to Hades as soon as it hits the pan. There is some portion of time where it performs admirably, but just not as long as an oil with a higher rating.

ANY oil can be used for too long, or not long enough. The people that really understand the true use of UOAs realize that this isn’t as a toy, but rather a tool to predict a sensible end to the useable lifecycle of any lubricant when viewing the entire set of data. You see, the correct approach is to develop safe condemnation levels for the lube, and then push out the OCI as far as possible; that will gain the greatest return for the investment regardless of the type and brand of oil. Unfortunately, most people want to limit the OCI, and then play a game to see who can get the lowest numerical number for some particular trait; that is NOT how a UOA should be used.

To bring this full circle, you have a great UOA, but what are the condemnation levels you’ve set for this vehicle? You mention (or at least infer) that you have a “fleet” to maintain. Do you have a fleet of 2.5L Subies, or is this just a one-off experiment in your garage? And what are you going to do to achieve the ROI? You said you’ve tried cheaper group III oils, but made no mention of what criteria they failed to be judged inferior. What “average” distance were you getting out of them as compared to your condemnation limits for your fleet? You said you had 750k miles of fleet data; please give specific details as to the type of vehicles, type of use, lubes used, etc, etc.

You asked if this would be a “fair fight” in regard to motors that “have been destroyed due to lubrication failures from heat”; I would ask just how many Subie 2.5L engines you’ve had to rebuild in this “fleet” of yours that were destroyed by these other inferior oils due to HTHS failure? Am I supposed to believe that you are in such a unique situation that ONLY RedLine products will survive, and all others fail, due to heat? Are you suggesting that Amsoil would fail? And what of RP or M1? If you’re having motors "destroyed" related to heat, that tells me you were not properly maintaining the vehicles in the first place, because you were not tracking the “other” lubes close enough to catch failures before they occurred. Like I said, ANY oil can be over-utilized regardless of base stock and additive package; sounds to me like you didn’t track the “heat failed” engines close enough, and then blamed the oil for a poor maintenance management program. You said you've seen a shift in the "mechanical failure statistics"; what is the shift? How many "mechanical failures" are you seeing pre and post RL? How many engines have true mechanical failure due to HTHS degredation and not component failure? Are you stating that you're seeing multiple engines actually fail mechanically due to the oil selection? How many? What parts? How many miles? What fluids and conditions? Frankly, that's a pretty heady comment to make and I'd like to understand the basis for the statment.

You are correct in that I made assumptions, but then if you’re leaving out important data, how would we know otherwise? If you’ve run other oils, and done UOAs, then why not post them along with this UOA so that we can compare/contrast the performance differences? Why not tell us the condemnation levels you set for this 2.5L Subie? Show us that RL is the ONLY lube that can survive this heat monster.

You have shown a great UOA, but you have not shown a great maintenance program. Anyone can manipulate the conditions of a UOA. Can you manage this RL and Subie to get your value from the program choices?
 
Last edited:
I sure see enough 2.5 Subarus on the used market with 150k plus miles on them that seem to run okay.

I had always heard Redline was not a long drain oil. It seems to be doing okay here, but with 2 qts of make-up oil.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top