Dex-Cool clones

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http://www.valvoline.com/zerex/pdf/Zerex_CoolantChart.pdf?coaid=1B5D1AEA1AFC

and the below link says for ALL vehicles and combine with ALL fluids...this isn't my car, so i can't screw up...if it were mine (like the Galant) I'd throw in the all makes and model ST junk....

http://www.prestone.com/products/antifreezeCoolant.php#antifreezeCoolant0


Why can't the ST "all makes, all models, mixes with any color antifreeze" Extended Life up to 5 years or 150,000 miles be used in any car if properly flushed first???

the intrepid calls for ethylene glycol based and the honda calls for "silicate free" and that's it.

the ST listed above is:
ethylene glycol
diethylene glycol
sodium 2-ethyl hexanoate
sodium neodecanoate
 
Quote:

Big Jim:

Let's get something straight here:
1. Just because I just started posting here doesn't make me an idiot. I have a Masters degree in Biochemistry and teach AP Biology in high schools.
2. Just because you haven't had trouble with Dexcool doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem -- maybe you have been lucky?
3. If Ford, MB, Chysler, and VW have rejected Dexcool (2EHA) then I think you could trust their engineers, but maybe because you have posted many times here, you percieve yourself to be more intellegent?
4. Maybe you can learn from less posting and more research!!
5. Don't take what I (or others) say, do your own investigation. "Where there is smoke, there is probably a fire." Meaning the numerous complaints about Dexcool have some basis. GM doesn't want a massive recall ( and more lawsuits) and will deny problems for as long as they are able. If they change Dexcool, they will be admitting a problem existed, so they must keep using it and don't dare change it.

Click to expand...


Perhaps we will need to agree to disagree. I decline to return the personal attack salvo. Nothing is accomplished in that manner.
 
No personal attacks here. I'm stating two indisputable facts:

1. Dexcool ROUTINELY turns into a specific type of sludge, unlike any other coolant. Green antifreeze (of any sort) NEVER turns into this type of sludge- and rarely causes ANY problem at all.

2. I replaced dozens of N14 Cummins head gaskets in Ryder trucks filled with Texaco Dexcool. Texaco paid the warranty claims. To be fair, we refilled the engines with Texaco Dexcool as instructed (with a modified formulation, we were told), and they didn't come back.

Now, these are two GOOD reasons why I won't use dexcool or anything that I suspect is similar. Green antifreeze has worked fine for decades, so that's what I use.

Now, I'd be interested in somebody telling me exactly what BENNEFITS there are to runing Dexcool. Please go easy on the speculation and label recitation. I want either verifiable information, or interesting personal experience. While I don't doubt the "I've never had a problem with dexcool" posts on here... it really doesn't mean much when your vehicle is only a couple years old. It also doesn't negate the fact that thousand of people HAVE had cooling system problems when running Dexcool. It means nothing at all to the layer of sludge in my Ma's Lumina's cooling system.
 
Big Jim (GpII+ member, been around for years) Likes to end arguments with the "newb" attack.

Toocrazywhatever (GpIII, more than double the posts, but half the time onboard) Personal experience is the sum total of all knowledge and is applicable to everything outside his own narrow viewpoint.

There's a few others around here as well that will not be swayed with facts, statistics, evidence or other's experience. It threatens their feeling of personal supremacy in the BITOG realm.

Don't waste your time.
 
Quote:

Green antifreeze (of any sort) NEVER turns into this type of sludge- and rarely causes ANY problem at all.
.

Click to expand...


if that's the case, Why can't the ST "all makes, all models, mixes with any color antifreeze" Extended Life up to 5 years or 150,000 miles be used in any car if properly flushed first???

the intrepid calls for ethylene glycol based and the honda calls for "silicate free" and that's it.

the ST listed above is:
ethylene glycol
diethylene glycol
sodium 2-ethyl hexanoate
sodium neodecanoate
 
It might work ok- I have no way of knowing. Thing is (as pointed out on one of these recent dexcool boards), the all-makes stuff uses OAT additives similar to dexcool. It might work fine, as might dexcool with 'proper' maintanence. I've seen WAY too many problems with dexcool to risk it, though- especially considering that a cheap, readily available, and demonstrably better product is available.
 
Quote:

No personal attacks here. I'm stating two indisputable facts:

1. Dexcool ROUTINELY turns into a specific type of sludge, unlike any other coolant. Green antifreeze (of any sort) NEVER turns into this type of sludge- and rarely causes ANY problem at all.

2. I replaced dozens of N14 Cummins head gaskets in Ryder trucks filled with Texaco Dexcool. Texaco paid the warranty claims. To be fair, we refilled the engines with Texaco Dexcool as instructed (with a modified formulation, we were told), and they didn't come back.

Now, these are two GOOD reasons why I won't use dexcool or anything that I suspect is similar. Green antifreeze has worked fine for decades, so that's what I use.

Now, I'd be interested in somebody telling me exactly what BENNEFITS there are to runing Dexcool. Please go easy on the speculation and label recitation. I want either verifiable information, or interesting personal experience. While I don't doubt the "I've never had a problem with dexcool" posts on here... it really doesn't mean much when your vehicle is only a couple years old. It also doesn't negate the fact that thousand of people HAVE had cooling system problems when running Dexcool. It means nothing at all to the layer of sludge in my Ma's Lumina's cooling system.

Click to expand...


The old green coolant "green snot of death" has a bad habit of silicate fall out when it gets old. When it does, it plugs up radiators and causes overheating. It also becomes acidic and starts attacking cooling system parts. If the coolant is changed on schedule this is not likely to happen. I encountered this nearly daily when I worked as a mechanic.

I have not worked much on Cummings diesel engines so I have no experience there.

As a service manager responsible for used car reconditioning I seldom saw problems with Dexcool but saw a lot with old fashioned green.
 
If anyone is interested, I found what I printed off the Texaco site before they were bought by Chevron. There are five pages of their propaganda about Dexcool. I don't know how to scan it and then post it. It may be of interest as historical information. If anyone is interested in getting it posted here or in the articles section, I'll be happy to fax it.

The detailed information they had on the site was even more than I printed off. It was all removed after the merger.
 
Hello Big Jim and onion and everybody else ,
Jim ,is there anything on that thats different than what we know , meaning those of us who use DEXCOOL and like it ?

Onion ,
I'm still trying to understand the DEXCOOL NEGATIVE experience - have just never been able to pin one down that wasn't something else .
I have seen the ones covered by the old GM TSBs and although some people refer to them as at least partially condemming DEXCOOL they very clearly exonerate the DEX . I have broken all the DEXCOOL cautions , both deliberately and accidentally as well - but not with pure cast iron or steel .
That Cummins thing you saw - can you say more ?
 
Probably one of the big things from that old literature is that Texaco touted Dexcool as a universal coolant even back then. Their current web site does the same, although it may not be up to date as it does not show new product that is advertised in the car magizines.

What I did not print and so I do not have is the information about their diesel truck product that they claimed would last some ungodly time and milage.
 
Quote:

Hello Big Jim and onion and everybody else ,
Jim ,is there anything on that thats different than what we know , meaning those of us who use DEXCOOL and like it ?

Onion ,
I'm still trying to understand the DEXCOOL NEGATIVE experience - have just never been able to pin one down that wasn't something else .
I have seen the ones covered by the old GM TSBs and although some people refer to them as at least partially condemming DEXCOOL they very clearly exonerate the DEX . I have broken all the DEXCOOL cautions , both deliberately and accidentally as well - but not with pure cast iron or steel .
That Cummins thing you saw - can you say more ?

Click to expand...

I kept on hearing the biggest problems with Dex-Cool were with low coolant levels in many of GM's cast iron engines. One thing sodium phosphate was good at was quickly protecting cast iron from corrosion even with air pockets.

There shouldn't be any concerns that organic acid corrosion inhibitors are inherently damaging to cooling systems. I believe Prestone/Zerex/etc have been using certain amounts of organic acids in their silicated formulas for years before Dex-Cool came out. I always thought the big concern with Dex-Cool was that it **only** used organic acid inhibitors.

Honda coolants are supposed to be silicate-free but phosphated to provide quick protection, along with organic acid. Toyota red is one of the OAT inhbitors in Dex-Cool along with phosphate.
 
Quote:

Onion ,
I'm still trying to understand the DEXCOOL NEGATIVE experience - have just never been able to pin one down that wasn't something else .
I have seen the ones covered by the old GM TSBs and although some people refer to them as at least partially condemming DEXCOOL they very clearly exonerate the DEX . I have broken all the DEXCOOL cautions , both deliberately and accidentally as well - but not with pure cast iron or steel .
That Cummins thing you saw - can you say more ?

Click to expand...


There's not a whole lot more to say about the 'Cummins thing'. To clarify, the engines that had a problem with dexcool were the N14 Cummins- as in 14 liter. This was their 'big' engine at the time, from 330 to 525 hp- used mainly in over the road trucks. Other than the name, the engine bears no resemblence whatsoever to the Cummins engines in Dodge pickups(in case anybody was worried). Ryder switched to Dexcool in their entire fleet- and to my knowledge... only the N14 was affected (at least in the short term). When I removed the heads (three per engine) and looked the gaskets over, the rubber was a bit swelled and separated from the steel gasket. Replaced the head gaskets, refilled with Dexcool (we were TOLD that the formulation had been changed somehow to avoid the problem). The trucks never had a problem after that, as far as I know. Texaco paid the warranty claims- dozens just at the Cummins dealership where I worked. I seriously doubt they would've paid for these jobs (neighborhood of $1500 a pop) had the Dexcool not CAUSED the problem.

As far as general problems with dexcool go... in automotive applications. I've seen more dex-sludged automobiles over the years than I can count. Granted, most were several years old. It's entirely possible that they ALL had maintanence issues (most vehicles do if they're more than a couple years old). Thing is, the old fashioned green stuff won't cause that dex-sludge even if there ARE maintanence issues. I can only recall ever seeing (somewhat) comparable sludge in ONE cooling system filled with the good ole' green stuff... and that antifreeze clearly hadn't been changed in a decade. To be fair- since the N14 head gaskets, I haven't seen ANY problems with dexcool in over the road trucks (with any make engine)... the stuff seems to work fine. I'm sure it'll work fine in most any car if you change it every couple of years- not five years- my wife's car was thoroghly sludged when I met her. The car was six years old. Just the same, I've seen enough problems that I won't use the stuff.
 
Big Jim , onion ,

Just wondering aloud if onion's post after this and the information you just mentioned might be related ie onion , maybe the initial fill that obviously failed in those N14s was the original DEXCOOL AND the Diesel formula that Big Jim just mentioned is what they meant when they told you they were giving you a revised formula ?
dunno.gif


Somehow your two posts are related , I THINK .


offtopic.gif


I want to thank you both for some very interesting information . I hope we can continue this discussion .

In two different ways I also think you have some of the early pieces of the puzzle .
 
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JUST reread your post " Ryder switched " doesn't change anything I just posted but it does put a different slant on it . onion , do you happen to know what the original fill was ? See , Big Jim , onion ( from now on " guys " ) if this was a switch over that fits both your posts as well esp as you pointed out TEXACO took responsibility .


offtopic.gif


onion , here is just a good to know kind of thing ;
all coolant additive packs are water activated so anything premixed has a definitely shorter shelf life - which is one reason I try to avoid it .
This can be real important when it comes to " conventional green " 1-3 year life coolant regardless of which one we are talking about .
No matter what I'm using I mark two dates on the container and in the logs ; date of purchase and date opened ( same as install date ) - keeps me out of trouble .

onion , no criticism intended and I very much appreciate your original post in reply to mine but when I was talking about the U.S. PATENT OFFICE stuff I deliberately left out the SCA grouping and indicated so . However , your post turned the switch for me - I think the really different unconventional - conventional add packs are probably all about a truly universal - maybe a modular kind of additive chemistry for production costs .
dunno.gif
 
#@$%!, my thread has just become a room of flamez. I know some of our need to have the ingredants of Dex-cool but not allways Dex-cool to keep things rolling. If I could flush it all the way, I'd go to Toyota Pink right now, but that's not going to happen and Dex-cool and Dex-cool clones are much easier to get.
 
Quote:

Big Jim (GpII+ member, been around for years) Likes to end arguments with the "newb" attack.

Toocrazywhatever (GpIII, more than double the posts, but half the time onboard) Personal experience is the sum total of all knowledge and is applicable to everything outside his own narrow viewpoint.

There's a few others around here as well that will not be swayed with facts, statistics, evidence or other's experience. It threatens their feeling of personal supremacy in the BITOG realm. Don't waste your time.

Click to expand...


I don't worry about that with you, Oakie Dokie, you and your lame posts don't threaten anyone's supremacy, Troll..

Oakie-Dokie, your username is most appropriate. For your information I read here for over a year before I ever opened my yap, unlike YOU sir. My postings are not the sum total of my personal experience, although my personal experience is considerable with DexCool. If you troubled yourself to read past postings of a lot of folks in the know, some going back years on the subject, Oakie, you'd see that EVERY case of sludging/degradation of DexCool-filled cooling systems was related to flaws in the cooling system itself. Low levels, air, gasket troubles, intake and head. There is another factor in every case. But YOU have YOUR narrow little viewpoint, and that's lovely. But it IS uninformed.

Again, for the record, DexCool is fine in apps calling for it. I do not agree with 150K/5Year changes, on my vehicles, long before I ever heard of DexCool troubles, three years was my change interval. Never a problem. And my situation is not unique. The failures are the exceptions, not the rule. And, failures happened to neglected, faulty cooling systems in cars driven by negligent slobs. Again, these are troubles that develop over months, not days. Anyone taking a peek under the hood once in a while would notice the trouble long before it became significant.

Let's please keep this thread civil, so that we need not close it down. Thanks.
 
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I'm not a fan of Dex Cool. I think that Dex Cool has caused lots of people to have expensive problems.

By now most of us have heard the explanations why Dex Cool failed, and what can be done to prevent problems.

I use Dex Cool in two vehicles [ both Chevrolets ] and I worry a little bit about problems, but I expect the Dex Cool to work over a three year period with some extra attention.

But I think that GM and Texaco handled the testing and introduction of Dex Cool badly. I spoke to the head chemist for Dex Cool at Texaco many times and I was amazed at how much corporate speak I heard, and how little GM or Texaco cared about whether there was a problem with Dex Cool.

I think that there is little room for argument about the fact that Dex Cool is less than perfect. Dex Cool has capused roblems and damage. GM and Dex Cool manufacturers could have identified the problems earlier and done much more to issue TSB's and inform customers of the need to additional attenion to the coolant system and coolant levels.... IMHO.

Instead they chose to blame the end users. Sort of like GM with the Saturns and the various problems those poor owners suffered.

As far a dumping Dex Cool, it does seem tempting...but who knows whether a different additive pack creates new problems in some cars?

I decided to use the factory coolant in every new vehicle....and avoid changing the additive pack chemistry

I use G05 or conventional green in other vehicles depending on the manufacturer and model year. G05 is in our BMW's

I have decided never to convert a car to Dex Cool again. If it comes with Dex Cool, I will stay with Dex Cool in an OEM Dex Cool car, unless there is a problem.

I think 2-EHA raises some concerns, if it is a plasticizer. Perhaps there have been modifications to the Dex Cool formula or improvments in gasket materials and seals to reduce problems with 2-EHA or Dex Cool.

All I know is I don't need the headaches of experimenting with coolants and suffering expensive repairs or failures. I think Dex Cool is less than ideal as a coolant, and at I now belive it should only be used in vehicles that use Dex Cool from the factory.

Texaco did promote Dex Cool as a universal coolant...and like an idiot I trusted them. I lost three engines using Dex Cool, all to head gasket failures.

In 38 years of driving these three failures are the only head gasket failures in any vehicle I've owned. And are three out of four of any catastrophic engine failure my vehicles have experienced.

I did lose a VW Rabbit Convertible motor to a rock that I hit at night in the rain and fog. The car was lowered and by the time I saw that a rock was in the road it was too late to miss it. We towed the vehicle in and VW replaced the oil pump and oil pan... but the engine threw a rod during the road test.

The three Dex Cool motor failures were in two turbocharged Subarus and one Acura Integra. All three had catastrophic head gasket failures in which coolant got into the oil and the Subaru engines threw rods. The Acura had a cam seize in the head and caused the timing belt to jump a few teeth and that wiped out the valves before I could shut it down.

The same vehicles also had multiple water pump failures prior to blowing up. I wish that I had thought that maybe the coolant was to blame and changed out the Dex Cool. Instead I considered the Dex Cool to be beyond blame and kept using it. I assumed that I just had bad luck with defective factory water pumps.
 
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