Why not CG-4 ??

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I make a habit of borrowing the owners manual off friends when they get new cars to see what lubricants, coolants and maintenance activities the various manufacturers suggest.

The latest is the turbodiesel Nissan Navara that a workmate bought.

The 110kw 3 litre turbodiesel has an oil specification of

"API CD, CE, CF-4 and JASO DH1, with a subnote stating "Never use CG-4 grade oil".

Most of the decent oils do all of that PLUS CG-4.
 
That does seem very strange. CG-4 should be a better oil than those older ratings. The only thing that I can think of is that CG-4 oil might have a higer ash content.
 
I can't believe this is not a mis-print. Perhaps they meant one of the obsolete specifications? If you read the specifications themselves, it clearly states that CG-4 is a suitable replacement for CF-4. These days, all you are likely to find is CI-4 (latest) and perhaps CH-4. Here is a link to the API service specs:

http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Guidechart2002.pdf
 
Certainly doesn't look like a mis-print, as they've superscripted a reference, and then in the notes at the bottom of the page, it states "Never use a CG-4 grade oil".

Also lists 20,000 km oil changes for turbodiesels in european models.
shocked.gif


[ August 13, 2003, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Shannow ]
 
OK, what oild would you recommend for 6k (mile) oil changes (factory interval) on these things ?

3 litre turbodiesel, 4 valve, OHC, direct injection, turbo, 100kW (just under 150hp). Sump holds 6.9 litres.

Interestingly, it's not a screw on filter, but an element in a can like the old days.

Was thinking Delo 400 at 1000km, 5000km, (maybe pennzoil with it's moly would be better at low engine life) and Delvac 1 at 10,000km and every change thereon.
 
Interestlingly, many of the oil manufacturers are taking the non-CG-4 aspect seriously.

Castrol, valvoline, and Caltex are recommending passenger car motor oils for this diesel.

I would have thought that with the soot from the EGR, they would have wanted detergents/dispersents and TBNs.
 
Sprintman,
I'm intending Delvac 1 for the engine.

I'm still confused about the "no CG-4" issue, when a lot of the oil suppliers are offering passenger car oils that stop short of CG-4, and placing notes on their web pages not to use CG-4 oils. Nissans own diesel engine oil is CF.

Delvac 1 is CG-4, CH-4, and now CI-4.
 
Well, I found out today that Delvac 1 will void the warranty. When Nissan state that they want nothing above CF-4, that is what they want.

Was talking to a mobil tech today who is completely confused by this piece of Nissan documentation.

quote:

Oil specification API CF-4 (SAE10W-30)
Never use higher quality odiesel oil than these, for example CG-4

The reason is for not using a higher quality is because of the new trends in USA for low PM (soot) engine designs (Japan concentrates on lowering NOx). These USA large diesel engines run with higher piston crown temperatures and require a lubricant which is designed to keep the PM in suspension. It can then be removed when the oil is replaced.

An additive which is called a "dispersant" is used to hold the PM contaminants in suspension. The oil also has a reduced detergent level. These changes make it difficult to trap the contaminantsin the oil filter, which can increase the engine wear rate, especially on the DOHC valve system

What are they getting at here ?

Do they mean that they want high ash oils ?

Anyway, the 10W-30 specification goes against the owners manual (15W-40 to 30 degrees C, and xW-50 after).

The major oil companies are now specifying passenger car motor oils for these vehicles (20W-50). Mobil tech told me that the only synthetic that they'd recommend would be Mobil 1 5W-50.

Is this defeating the apparent need for a higher detergent level, going to a lower detergent passenger car motor oil ?

When I suggested delvac XHP extra 10W-40, which is rated as CF (and is XHVI basestock), he sounded more than impressed, as it's a good basestock, rated to SF, and has diesel TBNs and detergency.

This is a modern high swirl, high exhaust gas recirc turbo-diesel engine, so I'm pretty wary of not having a good enough oil.

Terry or Molakule, do you guys have any comments ?
 
I'd use a 15w-40, API SJ/CF formulation that also meets ACEA A3/B3 or B4 and maybe VW 505.00.

Dispersant levels in CI-4 oils have been increased to handle higher soot levels. Sulphated ash levels of CI-4 oils are typically in the 1.35%-1.50% range.

I'd specifically ask about using ACEA E3 or E5 rated oils. Some of the E5 stuff is up in the 1.6%-2.0% range in terms of sulphated ash.

In this case, it sound like they are concerned about the ratio of detergents/dispersants?
 
TooSlick, your view sounds pretty much like my thinking on the issue.

However, now the oil manufacturers are suggesting passenger car motor oils, which would have lower ash still.

(Edited to add the oil I'm thinking of at present)

Mobil Delvac XHP Extra 10W-40

Meets API CF, ACEA E4/B4/B3, and RVI-RD. Approved against MB 228.5, MAN M3277, MTU Type 3 Category 2, and Volvo VDS-2/VDS-3.

code:

Product Number 441071

Material Number 97E785

SAE Grade 10W-40

Density @ 15°C kg/l 0.87

Pour Point °C -27

Flash Point °C 234

Viscosity cSt @ 40°C 92

cSt @ 100°C 13.6

Viscosity Index 150

Sulphated Ash,Wt % 1.8

Total Base Number 15.5





[ October 23, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Shannow ]
 
What group basestock is that? Take a look at BP website as their Vanellus range might have what you require. And why not email Dave Granquist (RL tech) and gets his thoughts?
 
Rang Nissan today, and the dimwitted "technical" person stated "CF-4", or any other specs in the manual. I asked about CF..."If it's in the manual, it's OK", B3, A5....they are for the same engine, but in europe, AND in the manual..."No, the Australian Spec is CF-4, and Jaso DH-1, using CG-4 will void your warranty".

Caltex rep stated that they'd been in contact with Nissan Japan, and still the same crap. He stated that he uses Delo400 in their fleet with this engine, and warranty be ****ed.
 
quote:

Originally posted by sprintman:
What group basestock is that? Take a look at BP website as their Vanellus range might have what you require. And why not email Dave Granquist (RL tech) and gets his thoughts?

Sprintman, it was XHVI (GrIII).
Ordered a 20 l drum today, and was advised that it's being phased out ...will still get my drum.
Sure 'nuff, checked the mobil website, and it's disappeared since saturday.

BP have a vanellus E4 which looks to be similar "advanced basestock", nearly 2% ash, and 10W-40.
 
sprintman,
there's a new one on the Oz website, Delvac 1 SHC, which has not petrol rating.

Pretty god pour point compared to D1.


Applications
Mobil Delvac 1 SHC 5W-40 is recommended for use in all types of heavy duty, 4-cycle high speed diesel engine applications including those which are turbo-charged or intercooled. It is particularly suiteable for life boat engines and emergency generators operating under the most severe service conditions.

Specifications & Approvals

Mobil Delvac 1SHC 5W-40 meets or exceeds the following industry and builder specifications:

ACEA E5/B4/B3
API CF


Mobil Delvac 1 SHC 5W-40 has the following builder approvals:

Mack EO-M
ZF-TE-ML 04C
Volvo VDS-2
Renault RVI RXD
Deutz TBD 616 Marine
Daimler Chrysler MB 228.5
MAN M 3277
MTU Type 3


Typical Properties

SAE Grade
5W-40
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 93
cSt @ 100ºC 14.5
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 172
Sulphated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.8
Total Base # , mg KOH/g, ASTM D 2896 16
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -54
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 226
Density @ 15ºC kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.860
Will chat to Mobil on Monday.

[ March 18, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]
 
There is definitely some confusion there, but when you look at their request for a JASO DH-1, that includes Delo 400 15w40, which is what I supply Nissan with here. Delo is also a CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, etc. as well as SL.
As I recall when Cg-4 came out you could pass (if you wanted) with a lower TBN. The japanese engines also have different piston designs that they were concerned with.
When they came out with DH-1 specs, several of the companies got on board, and Delo was the first to certify an oil with the new Global spec that included JASO, API, and ACEA.
 
2 years ago, I came across this article but the link doesn't seems to work any more. Luckily, I had cut and paste and save it on my pc. It's interesting reading. FYI, I think the JASO DX-1 is the code name for the new spec. and when it's ready for launch, they rename it JASO DH-1. Hence some confusion.

http://www.lubrizol.com/DieselTrends/dtrends100.htm#JASO
Extract from above www.

JASO DX-1: Performance for Japanese Diesel Engines
JASO DX-1 is the new diesel lubricant specification currently under development for Japanese heavy duty engines. This proposed specification incorporates test procedures from North America, Europe, and Japan.
Outside of Japan, Japanese OEMs have been recommending API CD oils for service fill for many years. However, some field performance deficiencies with API CD have been observed. The Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA) does not believe that any of the current API specifications fully address their performance needs and are, therefore, proposing a new specification for higher quality oils to meet the increasing requirements of their new, low emission engines. The JASO DX-1 specification will address three key performance areas: valve train wear, piston deposits and exhaust gas recirculation (EGR).
A primary concern of Japanese OEMs has been the potential for valve train wear (VTW) with high dispersant oils. Relatively high levels of VTW had been observed in OEM evaluations of API CG-4 oils. Therefore, the Mitsubishi 4D34T test was developed to measure VTW protection in diesel lubricants in a typical Japanese engine.
Another major OEM concern has been piston deposits. Typically, the top ring is positioned lower on the piston in Japanese engines com-pared to the low emission designs in Europe and North America. This generally results in lower top ring temperatures in Japanese engines. Since recent piston deposit tests in the industry were developed to address temperatures hotter than those characteristic of Japanese applications, the Nissan TD-25 test was included to measure piston deposits under conditions typical of Japanese diesel engines.
The third OEM concern has been exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). EGR significantly increases the potential for high levels of acid in the oil and resulting engine component corrosion. JASO DX-1 is therefore likely to include a minimum TBN requirement of 10 by ASTM D4739, which is approximately equal to 11-12 TBN by ASTM D2896.

http://www.lubrizol.com/DieselTrends/Trends9/requirements.htm
Extract from above www.
Diesel Trends 9
Oil Performance Requirements for JASO DH-1
On October 10, 2000, the JASO Engine Oil Implementation Panel officially introduced JASO DH-1, the new diesel lubricant specification for Japanese heavy-duty engines.
The quality of JASO DH-1 diesel lubricants for 4-cycle diesel engines is specified under the Japanese Automobile Standard JASO M 355:2000. This standard specifies the lubricant performance required for engines that meet the strict exhaust emission regulations in Japan, as previously discussed in Diesel Trends 8. It requires oils with improved performance for abrasive-wear and corrosion protection, high-temperature oxidation stability, and soot control. In addition, it specifies performance related to controlling piston detergency, high-temperature deposits, foaming, oil consumption due to volatility, viscosity after shearing, and seal compatibility.
After many years of using API CD oils, the Japanese OEMs have started the Millennium with aggressive schedules to introduce higher-quality diesel engine oils to meet increasingly stringent emission requirements.
Japanese OEMs are expected to adopt JASO DH-1 as the specification for factory-fill oil as well as service-fill oil. OEMs are likely to introduce and promote DH-1 within the Japanese market before extending it to other Asian regions. It is the intention of OEMs to use the Asia Fuels and Lubricants Conference and other trade/industry conferences as forums to promote the use of DH-1.
Although JASO DH-1 was developed for new engines meeting strict exhaust emission regulations, it can also be applied to engines manufactured before the establishment of the regulations. In addition, it can be used for diesel fuel with sulfur content exceeding 0.05%, provided that the oil change practice is in accordance with the OEM's recommended drain intervals.
 
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