What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


But with that said I'd still follow most OLMS with no problem. So far we have seen only a ACTUAL problem with the OLM on this vehicle and GM came back and reprogrammed their OLM on certain vehicles.

Plenty of OLMs ARE safe and sound. In fact the OLM on the same engine without the CAFE garbage was clean and running just fine following the OLM.

The only thing I'd say is *IF* I had an DI'd motor I'd change it earlier than the OLM "just in case" since DI is still a question in my mind.

Take care, bill


The word "MOST" scares me. In my case I can't afford to gamble. I'll stick to my severe service interval, and sleep well at night. I'd hate to find out like Adam did that the OLM was wrong. I'll do the extra OCI each year. If I keep the vehicle for 10 years I blew an extra $300-$400 [synthetic oil change and filter], and if I shop for oil deals it will be even less. Opinions vary.

We do agree on DI.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Adam,

I am curious here...

Of the services you had done at the dealer, were they only the $39.95 oil changes and were you getting the full A1/B1 services done. Did you ever have any more major 30k or B12 services done at the dealer?

I think one of the major factors that contributed to their lack of contribution is because you had some services done outside, and also, I'm guessing that you did not spend a significant amount of $$ at this dealer.

When my buddy (fellow BITOGer) when through a goodwill claim recently for his 09 FX35, the service manager advised that it is based on four factors: 1) length of ownership, 2) # of new vehicles you have purchased from that brand, 3) how much money was spent at the dealer, 4) whether all services were done at the dealer. Those were 4 biggies that corporate looked at it to judge customer loyalty and were the deciding factors to see if it would be worthwhile to help.


I bought the full A# and B# code services from the dealer, which ran between $122.17 and $181.76. According to my records the only recommended services I had done outside the dealership were some basic A1 oil changes.


Hmm, so it sounds like for the 35k or so that you had dealer service, you had the full minor A1 and B1 services done. I would have expected for the larger A12 or B12 services to be in the 300-400 range. So, minimal service history with not much $$ spent - not surprised by the dealer's lack of help here, unfortunately.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


But with that said I'd still follow most OLMS with no problem. So far we have seen only a ACTUAL problem with the OLM on this vehicle and GM came back and reprogrammed their OLM on certain vehicles.

Plenty of OLMs ARE safe and sound. In fact the OLM on the same engine without the CAFE garbage was clean and running just fine following the OLM.

The only thing I'd say is *IF* I had an DI'd motor I'd change it earlier than the OLM "just in case" since DI is still a question in my mind.

Take care, bill


The word "MOST" scares me. In my case I can't afford to gamble. I'll stick to my severe service interval, and sleep well at night. I'd hate to find out like Adam did that the OLM was wrong. I'll do the extra OCI each year. If I keep the vehicle for 10 years I blew an extra $300-$400 [synthetic oil change and filter], and if I shop for oil deals it will be even less. Opinions vary.

We do agree on DI.

I just calculated this myself and concur with the cost estimates above. It would have, and from now on it will, only cost me about $48 per year more to run a good quality, top brand, synthetic instead of dino from the same oil manufacturer, and change it every 5,000 miles instead of waiting for the (lack of) Maintenance Minder. I do respect the opinion of those who call that overkill, but I am considering it to be inexpensive insurance from this point forward. Lesson leaned: Trust your gut more than technology.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
...(lack of) Maintenance Minder. I do respect the opinion of those who call that overkill, but I am considering it to be inexpensive insurance from this point forward.


It sounds reasonable to me. I understand the "overkill" concept, considering I tend to use dino and generally consider synthetics overkill. However, if I were in your shoes, I'd be doing synthetics at 5,000 miles, too.

Maintenance minders are great ideas. Mileage and time based recommendations work fine, too. However, both can be the product of an overly optimistic mindset. Part of the reason that VW/Audi went to synthetics with rigorous specifications was overly optimistic OCIs on API conventional. My old Audi called for 12,000 mile OCIs with a sump of under five litres. At least under certain conditions, I'd consider that overly optimistic, and ignored that.

We have to remember that it's not the fault of the technology itself, be it the MM or the paper manual. It's the people who wrote the algorithm or the manual recommendations that were in error.

By the way, you should copyright the term "(lack of) Maintenance Minder."

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
...(lack of) Maintenance Minder. I do respect the opinion of those who call that overkill, but I am considering it to be inexpensive insurance from this point forward.


We have to remember that it's not the fault of the technology itself, be it the MM or the paper manual. It's the people who wrote the algorithm or the manual recommendations that were in error.

By the way, you should copyright the term "(lack of) Maintenance Minder."

LOMM doesn't sound exactly right, plus I wouldn't dare create another acronym. How about we call the one on my vehicle 'Maintenance Miscalculator'. Wait, I'm not going to start an argument with that, am I?

 

[ltslimjim]

No such thing as doing something 'reasonable' as overkill.

More like, just right.

 

[INDYMAC]

I think it's more about the lack of PCV valve changes.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
LOMM doesn't sound exactly right, plus I wouldn't dare create another acronym. How about we call the one on my vehicle 'Maintenance Miscalculator'.


Why not another acronym? We can add it to the list.

You should go through all the manual pages and change all the references to "miscalculator" and send it back to the manufacturer.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


But with that said I'd still follow most OLMS with no problem. So far we have seen only a ACTUAL problem with the OLM on this vehicle and GM came back and reprogrammed their OLM on certain vehicles.

Plenty of OLMs ARE safe and sound. In fact the OLM on the same engine without the CAFE garbage was clean and running just fine following the OLM.

The only thing I'd say is *IF* I had an DI'd motor I'd change it earlier than the OLM "just in case" since DI is still a question in my mind.

Take care, bill


The word "MOST" scares me. In my case I can't afford to gamble. I'll stick to my severe service interval, and sleep well at night. I'd hate to find out like Adam did that the OLM was wrong. I'll do the extra OCI each year. If I keep the vehicle for 10 years I blew an extra $300-$400 [synthetic oil change and filter], and if I shop for oil deals it will be even less. Opinions vary.

We do agree on DI.

I just calculated this myself and concur with the cost estimates above. It would have, and from now on it will, only cost me about $48 per year more to run a good quality, top brand, synthetic instead of dino from the same oil manufacturer, and change it every 5,000 miles instead of waiting for the (lack of) Maintenance Minder. I do respect the opinion of those who call that overkill, but I am considering it to be inexpensive insurance from this point forward. Lesson leaned: Trust your gut more than technology.


Yep, let someone else test the technology, not me. You drive a bit more than I do, in fact my estimate was a bit on the high side, it all depends on how much summer driving we do. Either way, round it up to $50 a year more, and its still cheaper. I'll guarantee an engine in better shape 10 years down the road, than someone who followed that MM. I'm really glad it ended the way it did for you. It could have gotten really ugly.

 

[rjundi]

MM seems work for majority of Honda acura owners. It appears Honda did not account at all or enough for vcm. Hopefully they fix algorithm as it is quite easy to account for if not done already.

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
plus I wouldn't dare create another acronym.
Go ahead...we LOVE acronyms here.

I've followed this thread from the beginning and I'm glad there was an acceptable outcome. It does seem obvious that the design of the VCM in this case is somewhat flawed, (although not completely defective) and Honda did drop the ball on the Maintenance Miscalulator programming.

 

[LeakySeals]

For anyone that followed this thread....Interesting discussion with my brother in law today about his 07 Honda Ridgeline v6. I was mentioning this thread, and to beware of the OLM.

His exact words were "Huh? No way its too long, my OLM goes off at 5k. The engines spotless, I think its going off too soon but I change the oil anyways".

 

[Indydriver]

Adam:

I just found your thread today and read the whole thing. I'm interested because as you see below, we own a 2011 Accord V6 VCM. Only after the purchase did I discover the underworld of irate Honda owners with VCM engines. Try googling "Odyssey oil consumption" and you'll find an afternoon of interesting reading. I learned through my research what you have learned by experience:

1. VCM has been problematic since it's introduction.
2. Running in Eco mode causes excessive oil consumption, plug fouling and differential temperature issues within the engine.
3. Highway driving causes the most extreme wear on this engine as that is when it is running or cycling into and out of cylinder shut down.
4. Rather than admit failure, Honda has fought it's customers tooth and nail to hide the problem-you're the first case I've seen where compensation was received from Honda. Rest assured that those Honda Area Reps are WELL AWARE of complaints about VCM and are WELL COACHED to stonewall Honda customers. Meanwhile, their engineering Dept has been whipped to develop fixes. The 2011 models were introduced with "improved oil control rings and moly-impregnated piston skirts" specifically as a bandaid to this poor design. In turn, dealers were instructed to insist that owners not change the FF early and follow the MM explicitly.

It was this odd and previously unheard of insistence by the dealer that first got me curious about this engine. I had always been in the 'change early' camp. Like you, I thought, 'OK, they must know what they are talking about'. I did the first oil change at 10% on the MM which was 6300 miles on our Accord. I did a UOA on this oil out of curiosity to Honda's claims and all the controversy here and elsewhere. The TBN was down to 2.0, indicating it was used up and of course it was loaded with metal, including 250+ppm of CU-high even for a first change. My conclusion was that I really wasn't comfortable taking the OCI beyond 5000 miles. Oh yeah, this engine comes OE with 0W-20, presumably "Honda Genuine", either semi or full synthetic. I am replacing with Honda Full Syn during the warranty period, then switching to TGMO or M1. When I saw your situation of taking this engine to 10000 mile intervals on conventional oil, my first thought was, "Oh, oh, he's heading for trouble."

Anyway, I'm glad you got help from Honda and are presumably happy with the result. Your thread does a service to all auto consumers by providing great documentation of your issues with this engine and will hopefully assist other owners experiencing similar problems.

This spring, we needed to replace our minivan. Normally, I would have given the Odyssey careful consideration. But, because it's only available with VCM, we didn't even look at Honda and bought a Toyota. So rest assured, whether Honda can see it or not, their VCM design and their treatment of unhappy customers has already hurt them significantly in lost sales.

Good luck the rest of the way with your Pilot.

 

[dave1251]

2.0 TBN is not used up. Sorry to burst that bubble. Also I would not try to establish any trend on a break-in UOA. But if you have to change your oil at 5K OCI with a synthetic oil to bring along a engine that is having a plethora of issues due to poor design, I am sorry you bought a car with a bad engine.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
2.0 TBN is not used up. Sorry to burst that bubble. Also I would not try to establish any trend on a break-in UOA. But if you have to change your oil at 5K OCI with a synthetic oil to bring along a engine that is having a plethora of issues due to poor design, I am sorry you bought a car with a bad engine.

Fine, what is used up in your opinion?

I don't mind 5K OCIs with synthetic if that's what it takes to optimize longevity of the engine. And, no need to feel sorry for me, the car is actually a delight to drive despite the VCM. If Honda's tweaks and my over spec TLC make it last 200,000 miles we'll all be happy.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
How about we call the one on my vehicle 'Maintenance Miscalculator'. Wait, I'm not going to start an argument with that, am I?

I think you can leave it as 'MM'; only on these Hondas it may mean 'Maintenance MISminder'

PS...glad to hear it worked out for you!

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: dave1251
2.0 TBN is not used up. Sorry to burst that bubble. Also I would not try to establish any trend on a break-in UOA. But if you have to change your oil at 5K OCI with a synthetic oil to bring along a engine that is having a plethora of issues due to poor design, I am sorry you bought a car with a bad engine.

Fine, what is used up in your opinion?

I don't mind 5K OCIs with synthetic if that's what it takes to optimize longevity of the engine. And, no need to feel sorry for me, the car is actually a delight to drive despite the VCM. If Honda's tweaks and my over spec TLC make it last 200,000 miles we'll all be happy.


1. To properly determine that your PCMO has become too acidic you would have to determine how the acidity is contributing to oxidation and how the acid in used motor oil effects wear. Just going buy the TBN or TAN number is not enough data to predict the corrosive effects of the oil in use. Acidity in a motor oil by itself is not necessarily a bad thing, neither is alkalinity but it takes a formulation balance.

2. Establishing a trend take many data points and when you try to establish trends new parts during break-in there is too many variables in break in metals, silicon, and in the case of Honda engines break-in additives.

3. 5,000 miles is a conservative OCI, if I had to use this OCI with my daily driver to get a lifetime of use out of it on a synthetic oil, that is unsatisfactory for me. A vehicle is supposed to work for me. I am not supposed to work for it. That is my opinion.
You may feel different but to worry about my car's or truck's engine and babying both is not a very high priority in my life. As the owner of your vehicle being happy and content is most important emotional factor, so if you feel the need to nurture a inanimate object who should be able to take that happiness away from you? Not me that is for sure.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
5,000 miles is a conservative OCI

It is. And I'd say, adopting one is the entire lesson to be learned from this thread.

 

[lemonade]

my Odyseey usually call for an oil change around 6-7K, do you guys think I can safely stick to the van's OLM with 6-7K OCI with QSUD/ PP/ PU ?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: lemonade
my Odyseey usually call for an oil change around 6-7K, do you guys think I can safely stick to the van's OLM with 6-7K OCI with QSUD/ PP/ PU ?


I'd go 6 months or 5,000 miles, whatever comes first.