What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: AVB
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Hounds
If we are going to speculate, let's speculate as to whether a Honda mechanic would have seen the potential for the issues Adam's now dealing with had he gotten his "A" and "B" service and maintenance checks done by a Honda dealership.

Ok, I'm speculating..Unless Honda's maintenance checks include valve cover removal to inspect cam lobes I doubt dealer oil changes would have changed anything.


The maintenance schedule on mitchell shows for A and B service to adjust only if noisy. Service 04 says to inspect valve clearance.

Ahh I see..From his owner's manual..
"Adjust the valves during services A, B, 1, 2, or 3 if they are noisy".
Good grab.

 

[K20FA5]

Originally Posted By: Mau
Originally Posted By: K20FA5
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

Out here...


Good Question!

Ours has gone to 8,000 once, back when it was newer. Most of the time it's around 6,000 if I were to let it go to 15%.

I just changed it last night, it was at 5,500 and the MM was at 25%.

I still don't trust that thing and try to change it as close to 5,000 as I can.


how does it look under the cap?


Really good. I actually looked (or tried) on this last change just because of this thread. It's hard to see because the fill hole is angled towards the radiator, but from what I could see, it looked good.

 

[Hounds]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
. . . It is quite obvious from the pictures of the pollution of the front valve train that whatever defect caused this had been happening for a long time, perhaps since the vehicle was new, and certainly when it was well withing its warranty period. Who did the service has much less relevance then the fact that the service was done, done correctly, and done when it was called for. IMHO

Obvious only to the owner who now wants Honda to pay for his repairs. The rest is complete conjecture on your part.

What you have is a 37k mile history of Jiffy Lube oil changes and only oil changes. It's impossible to say whether HondaCare service would have prevented your maintenance issues, but it's a certainty that Jiffy Lube "service" didn't.

 

[rjundi]

Yikes. I own a 2007 Acura MDX 95k with a related motor(albeit 3.7 without VCM) but it has gotten the 7.5k-9.5k OCI at Acura dealer by prior owner I purchased from.

I will stick to OLM 6k-7k interval but use synthetic next time around.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

OP'S CHAPTER CLOSED:

Today I met with the Honda Area Rep and my Honda dealer's Service Manager. I reiterated my estimation of the situation:

1) This vehicle's variable cylinder management engine is particularly hard on oil. The cause may be a Honda design flaw or manufacturing problem or both.

2) This vehicles Maintenance Minder does not correctly consider all the factors required or properly calculate oil life based on the above engine condition, allowing the oil to run too long and deteriorate.

3) My driving habits on the interstate highways of New England have the VCM running on 3-cylinder ECO mode much of the time, exasperating the above issues which caused a premature failure of the front single overhead cam.

I asked the Rep if he thought these combination of factors amounted to a defect. He said, "I don't know" (He didn't say no). The Rep said that he reviewed the case, and he asked me several questions about the oil that had run in my Pilot. I went over the service records with him was able to show that the conventional I used oil that was equal to or better then the conventional oil the dealer was using when I had the oil changes done elsewhere. I asked him if he agreed that the oil deteriorating on only the front valve train was occurring for most of the lifetime of of the engine, while it was still under warranty. He didn't answer that question exactly, but his immediate response was to offer me assistance with the repair bill. He offered to reimburse me 70% of the $780.18, within the next week or so. Evidently the manufacturer and the dealer have a procedure for this. I thanked him, agreed, and I signed a repair order showing a refund of $546.12. I feel this is a fair resolution and am satisfied with this outcome.

We talked a bit about the engine moving forward he said that he would not be able to offer me anything like an extended warranty on future problems that might arise. The Honda Area Rep did say, however, that the best thing I could do would be to change my oil every 5,000 miles with a good synthetic brand. He added, "That's what I do with my own cars".

 

[Sunnyinhollister]

Originally Posted By: Hounds
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
. . . It is quite obvious from the pictures of the pollution of the front valve train that whatever defect caused this had been happening for a long time, perhaps since the vehicle was new, and certainly when it was well withing its warranty period. Who did the service has much less relevance then the fact that the service was done, done correctly, and done when it was called for. IMHO

Obvious only to the owner who now wants Honda to pay for his repairs. The rest is complete conjecture on your part.

What you have is a 37k mile history of Jiffy Lube oil changes and only oil changes. It's impossible to say whether HondaCare service would have prevented your maintenance issues, but it's a certainty that Jiffy Lube "service" didn't.


The Jiffy lube oil worked great on the rear half of the engine.

Honda specified the oil to be used. Honda specified the interval that the oil is to remain in the engine through their OLM. Honda designed the VCM to operate in the vehicle having half the cylinders do twice the amount of work (which creates more heat in those cylinders in case you were wondering). Honda designed the VCM to operate for extended periods of time under high load such as prolonged highway use at 75 mph AND did not adjust the OLM to take into account the increased localized heating that would occur.

Yes it must be Jiffy lubes fault. Obviously it is the OP fault for following Honda's recommendation for oil and interval. Might as well blame ILSAC for not having an oil spec that would not hold up in this particular environment.

 

[gogozy]

HI Adam:
I take it as good news! - I am also glade Honda step up at the end (for their own good).
thanks very much for taking time and heat to share this information with us.

 

[TFB1]

A 70% settlement is no doubt better than what most are offered... Likely having info that suggested the OLM was at least partially responsible, gave the owner a edge...

 

[Solarent]

Adam;

I would like to join with every one in saying "Way to go!!!" for taking it all the way and not backing down. I think the settlement is fair and you should be happy.

As you have received lots and lots of advice on how to get your engine clean again and prevent future issues I also agree that conventional oil is obviously not sufficient for your conditions and as recommended you should probably switch to a good synthetic and a shorter OCI.

Hopefully if you choose to keep your Pilot following a more aggressive maintenance schedule will keep it running for a long time. And hopefully Honda will do something about this engine design; or at least start fix the MM or spec better oil.

 

[RISUPERCREWMAN]

Going over 5K with any oil is like playing roulette! I always change at 5K no matter that oil I use! Modern engines are tough on oil!

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
He offered to reimburse me 70% of the $780.18, within the next week or so. Evidently the manufacturer and the dealer have a procedure for this. I thanked him, agreed, and I signed a repair order showing a refund of $546.12. I feel this is a fair resolution and am satisfied with this outcome.


Wow, pretty good outcome. Better than I had expected.

 

[ltslimjim]

The best thing for Honda to do is issue a TSB and re-program/re-flash relative to the VCM and perhaps the OLM/MM.

 

[Hounds]

Sunny, in taking me to task you said . . .

Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
. . . .
Honda specified the oil to be used. Honda specified the interval that the oil is to remain in the engine through their OLM. Honda designed the VCM to operate in the vehicle having half the cylinders do twice the amount of work (which creates more heat in those cylinders in case you were wondering). Honda designed the VCM to operate for extended periods of time under high load such as prolonged highway use at 75 mph AND did not adjust the OLM to take into account the increased localized heating that would occur.

Yes it must be Jiffy lubes fault. Obviously it is the OP fault for following Honda's recommendation for oil and interval. Might as well blame ILSAC for not having an oil spec that would not hold up in this particular environment.

I didn't argue that MM system wasn't responsible for the OP's sludge problem. Clearly it was. (Well, that and 10k miles on conventional motor oil in a Honda V-6 motor.)

My point is that it's anyone's guess as to whether the OP's sludge problem caused his camshaft damage. WRT this issue, allow me to quote my prior comments:
Originally Posted By: Hounds
What the OP has experienced with his V-6 -- i.e., galling on one or more camshaft lobes -- is a not too unusual occurence in older, high-mileage k-series (4-cyl.) Honda engines. Typically, the cars owners only learn of the problem when they have their cars serviced and the valves adjusted at 90k-105k miles, and they are shown the damage. (You can read about this on any of the Honda boards or simply Google "Honda camshaft galling".) This invariably leads to a discussion -- and just as frequently a heated argument -- as to the cause: Is it the result of inadequate maintenance, 20-weight vs. 30-weight oil, the type of oil, high rpm, metallurgical, etc. . . .


You apparently believe the OP's sludging problem also caused his camshaft damage, as does he. If you and the OP are correct, you can add that to the above list of potential causes of camshaft galling.

In any case, given the OP's maintenance history and the fact that he was thousands of miles beyond the factory warranty period, Honda's decision to pay 70% of his repair bill was a generous one. I certainly don't begrudge him his good fortune.

 

[Hounds]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
The best thing for Honda to do is issue a TSB and re-program/re-flash relative to the VCM and perhaps the OLM/MM.

An excellent idea. Running these V-6 VCM engines 10k miles on conventional motor oil is just dumb.

 

[doitmyself]

Excellent, Adam.

May I suggest you contact the moderators here to change the title of your thread so that others Googling similar problems will find it?

 

[Tortuga]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Excellent, Adam.

May I suggest you contact the moderators here to change the title of your thread so that others Googling similar problems will find it?


Great suggestion.

Adam, glad to hear that things worked out, and I hope you get many, many more trouble miles from your Pilot. Please keep us posted.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Tortuga
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Excellent, Adam.

May I suggest you contact the moderators here to change the title of your thread so that others Googling similar problems will find it?


Great suggestion.

Adam, glad to hear that things worked out, and I hope you get many, many more trouble miles from your Pilot. Please keep us posted.


Thank you very much, friends. Based on your suggestion I have emailed a moderator and asked that the thread title be changed to "What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?"

 

[demarpaint]

Way to go Adam! It's good to see Honda stepped up to the plate. Now do yourself a favor and ignore any OLM you come in contact with. It's just not worth the risk, or the aggravation, and you know all about that. Funny that you mentioned even the Honda rep ignores the OLM, and recommends synthetic oil. That's pretty smart on his part.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Way to go Adam! It's good to see Honda stepped up to the plate. Now do yourself a favor and ignore any OLM you come in contact with. It's just not worth the risk, or the aggravation, and you know all about that.


Glad that Adam found some help from the MFG. As someone who also had to deal with out of warranty work which was paid for after some time its good to see MFG step up and admit to some "shortcomings" of their "engineering".

But with that said I'd still follow most OLMS with no problem. So far we have seen only a ACTUAL problem with the OLM on this vehicle and GM came back and reprogrammed their OLM on certain vehicles.

Plenty of OLMs ARE safe and sound. In fact the OLM on the same engine without the CAFE garbage was clean and running just fine following the OLM.

The only thing I'd say is *IF* I had an DI'd motor I'd change it earlier than the OLM "just in case" since DI is still a question in my mind.

Take care, bill

 

[hattaresguy]

Build enough of anything and your going to get a dud. You got the dud, sorry to hear it but it happens.