Mobil 1 0W-40, '99 Saab 9-3 Turbo, 4700 miles

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For the 20k miles previous to this, I'd been using Syntec 10W-30 for 10k mile intervals. Then, I got a "free oil change" card from the dealer & used their bulk 5W-30 as a flush (drove it for 20 miles before I dumped it) & put in this run of 0W-40. (Hopefully, that cleaned out some of the nasties.) The OEM filter (UK-made ACDelco PF53 clone) stayed, but I drained as much of the bulk oil out of it as I could. I’ve also had a K&N drop-in air filter on the car for the past 20k miles, & it hasn’t needed cleaning yet.

We took a family trip over Memorial Day Weekend & fully loaded the car with four people & luggage, & then went up into the mountains (we live at 5,300 ft, & everything from here is up). It didn't feel like we were straining the engine at all, but it was during this trip when we began experiencing a cold-start problem that stayed with the car until this sample was taken.

I suspected a head gasket problem might’ve contaminated the oil (we had coolant seepage on the outside of the engine block at the gasket line), but it doesn’t appear to have reached the oil.

The other unusual situation for this period was some Diverter Valve (turbo bypass valve) testing I ran this past Spring. Basically, I had the car idling while I swapped DVs & observed their operation under normal-idle (approx 900rpm) & fast-idle (approx 1200rpm) conditions. I didn’t think about it at the time, but I had numerous occasions of multiple intake openings downstream of the air filter. Of course, I was doing this at the edge of a field, while the wind was blowing …
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After swapping DVs, I’d make several ¼-mile runs with each new part, taking the engine up to 6,000 rpms each time (much higher than our “normal” driving routine).

The "representative" VOA for this oil can be found here. The same lab (H.O.Penn) did this UOA.

code:

Vehicle: 1999 Saab 9-3SE, 2.0L turbo, auto

Total Miles: 43,930

Total Oil: 4.0L (4.2 qts)

Miles on Oil: 4,718

Time on Oil: 7 months (approx. mid-Dec to mid-July)

Oil Added: none

Oil Used: none

Driving Use: 95%+ short trips (less than 10 miles)

Copper 7

Iron 26

Chrome 0

Lead 31

Aluminum 3

Silicon 8

Molybdenum 59

Sodium 12

Calcium 1737

Tin 0

Potassium 4

Magnesium 26

Zinc 1021



Water Neg

Glycol Neg

Viscosity 11.7

-

Oxidation* 49

Nitration* 79

Sulfur Prod* 57



(*) The Oxi/Nit/Sul numbers are relative to standardized Caterpillar Labs index, explained to me this way:
“These are a percentage of a maximum allowable index. At 100%+ you have a problem. Your oil looks well within normal levels for the miles on the oil.”

Fuel dilution wasn’t listed, but this lab doesn’t flag it until it reaches 4% anyway (it’s part of the “Caterpillar Standard”). I was told it doesn’t negatively affect lubrication & viscosity properties until it reaches that point. (I don’t know if the very high percentage of short trip service adds enough fuel to measurably affect the viscosity.) I’m running the hotter of the two factory-recommended plugs.

Particle Count wasn’t listed either, which apparently was a mistake on the lab’s part (& they don’t keep the samples). It’ll have to wait until next time!

Considering the use of a K&N air filter & the intake breaches during the DV testing, I’d say the silicon level looks pretty good. Also, keeping in mind that this oil was run during the coldest months of this past winter (frequently sub-zero) combined with the short trips, I think iron looks pretty good (for this model of engine) as well.

We're slowly heading towards 10k miles on this batch, & should reach it somewhere in the middle of Winter! Let me know if I’ve left anything out.
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Well, you will have to sample again to really get a feel for what is going on. Switching oils right away can skew numbers. Numbers are very high IMO. This oil cannot maintain it's viscosity, ever. It's now a 30wt, which is normal for this oil...but not ideal. See how your sample is next time. If it's not good, try Amsoil S2k or Delvac 1.
 
Eiron,

Due to the short trip driving, I'd change every 5000 miles based on this sample data. This oil looks shot to me, it's thinned out to a mid range 30wt @ 11.7 Cst - most likely from fuel dilution and/or shearing. From my experience, if oxidation/nitration are really at 50%/80% respectively, there is very little detergency, ie TBN left. Bearing wear also looks a bit high, which may be partially due to the oil thinning out. There is no way you want to run this oil for another 5300 miles!

Whoever told you it's fine to run 4% fuel dilution with gas is NUTS - they may have been talking about diesel fuel limits. I'd consider 2% to be the absolute limit for gas contamination ....

Due to these driving conditions, I'd try some Delvac 1 or Redline 5w-40 in here and see how that does. Those oils much more shear stable than the 0w-40, so even with some fuel dilution they should still remain in the 13-14 Cst range at changeout.

I'm not sure 10k changes would be good with any oil under these driving conditions ....

TS
 
Well that is enough for me, I'm going to switch from M1 to Redline. It looked at first like the shearing was an aberation, but now it just looks like the oil can't stand up.

Cary
 
This oil is not impressive in my book. You could go further but I wouldn't go much further and I wouldn't waste my time on an another analysis.

Why not just go with the Mobil 1 10W-30 and maybe mix a quart or two of the 15W-50 in with it.
 
Aside from the lead, it doesn't look drastically different from Ed NC's analysis here. Different lab though.

4,718 miles on yours, 5,500 on Ed's.

code:

Item Your results His results

Al 3 4

Fe 26 19

Cr 0 1

Cu 7 2

Pb 31 9

Tin 0 2

Si 8 4


Slightly higher iron probably due to colder winter in CO compared to NC? Not sure why the lead is higher.

VOA viscosity is 14.9, used vis is 11.7, means it changed 21.5% ?
 
Thanks for the input so far guys! Let me try to answer your comments, & hopefully that'll give a little info into what I'm trying to do, & why.

buster,
Yes, I know things are a little screwed up with this run. I wanted to get out of using Syntec & this is how it played out. I will be running another UOA on this batch, & then at least two more on the next 10k mile run. Again, this oil is most commonly UOA'd from turbo owners, so I don't feel uncomfortable with its performance (all the non-turbo UOAs look great). Since I'm still well above what my next choice for my area (M1 10W-30) starts at, I have no worries.

TooSlick,
Yes, if I were only going on a single UOA, then I might agree to stop. But I'm trying to determine a good 10k mile solution, verified by 5k mi & 10k mi UOAs. The Oxi/Nit levels are not at 50%/80%, they're at 50%/80% of the Catepillar index. The rep didn't say what the actual percentage was. What can you tell me about how is oil affected differently between gasoline & deisel fuels, 'cuz I don't know anything about that.

Cary,
Again, don't look at turbo UOAs for your N/A vehicles. I'm not saying "don't switch," I'm just saying look at something comparable to what you're driving. If you're uncomfortable running any oil for any reason, then you should switch so you can sleep at night.

Al,
I won't run a 10W-30/15W-50 mix because of the winters here. Since this oil stays in the car for a full year, I want something lower on the xW- end when it's cold. However, I would run a 0W-40/15W-50 mix, & that's actually what I've been planning to do for the past 6 mos.

quadrun1,
Yes, interesting, isn't it?!
grin.gif
(Keep in mind my VOA results show trace amounts of Al, Fe, Cu, Pb & Si.) Ed's running the M1 "darling" 10W-30, yet his similar thinning hasn't dissuaded anyone from heartily recommending it in a turbo application! My iron's higher than Ed's, but lower than Trevor's. My only guesses on the high lead count are: previous Syntec runs; high-rpm DV testing; first M1 run (washing out old crud?). Yes, the vis is down, but don't forget about any bulk 5W-30 remaining from my "rinse cycle." (Of course, I'm making an assumption that it took nearly all of the 10k-plus-mile used 10W-30 Syntec with it.) I think I only used 4 qts of 0W-40, rather than the spec'd 4.2 qts.

A little more info for y'all:
After this sample was taken, the filter was changed & 24oz of fresh 0W-40 added. (There're more complications to the story than that, but I won't go into it here.)
I plan on running Auto-Rx after 9k-10k miles on this oil, which should take care of whatever crud the M1 is slowly dislodging.
I want to run an oil for 10k miles, due to environmental reasons. In order to establish a valid "baseline" for my car's situation, I feel I need to run straight 0W-40 for the full interval. This is only the first glimpse at what's going on, so I don't feel I have enough data to make any decisions yet.

Thanks again for the input. I'm looking forward to hearing more thoughts & opinions!
cheers.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by Eiron:

Cary,
Again, don't look at turbo UOAs for your N/A vehicles. I'm not saying "don't switch," I'm just saying look at something comparable to what you're driving. If you're uncomfortable running any oil for any reason, then you should switch so you can sleep at night.


Thats part of the problem, the non-turbo UOA's are 12.9, 13.1, 12.9, 13.1, 13.4, 14.2, 12.46 & 13.3. Considering the orginal Viscosity is 14.3, I question the shearing. It gets much worse with turbo motors, yet Redline doesn't appear to shear even with hard driven turbos.

I really like Mobil 1, but am concerned what the shearing is leaving behind (sludge?). The 0w-40 works well in my Lancruiser, no consumption, good pressure, so I might leave it. I am a bit concerned leaving it in my wife's 525i which originally was using 15w-50. I like the cold start of the 0w, but will be going to 5w-40 Redline in that car. I guess I am just a bit dissapointed given how superior their product has been to other mainstream products in the past.

Cary
 
quote:

Originally posted by Cary:

I really like Mobil 1, but am concerned what the shearing is leaving behind (sludge?)


Does a change in viscosity always equate to sludge deposition?

(Going a bit off topic here, don't mean to hijack your thread, Greg!)

In the 330xi UOA I posted, the viscosity of the BMW HP Synth 5W-30 didn't change much at all, and yet deposits were forming on the inside of the oil filler cap. (See the metal part)

 -


I have M1 0W-40 in there now, and I'm looking forward to seeing if this deposit formation will be reduced. I'm expecting the M1 to run very clean.. stay tuned.

Jason
 
quote:

Originally posted by Eiron:

Al,
I won't run a 10W-30/15W-50 mix because of the winters here. Since this oil stays in the car for a full year, I want something lower on the xW- end when it's cold. However, I would run a 0W-40/15W-50 mix, & that's actually what I've been planning to do for the past 6 mos.


How about the 5W-40 Delvac 1? It holds grade better than the Mobil 1.
 
quadrun 1,

Just curious...where exactly is the oil fill point on your engine (IOW where is the cap positioned)?

Looking at yours and Eirons' UOAs it is clear to me (based on a sample of 3) that Saab turbo engines and M1 0W40 aren't an ideal pairing.

[ August 12, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
 
How come calcium levels have been varying so dramatically? Is it bc older formulations are still on the shelf being used? The latest 0w-40 has calcium at only 1,700. We have seen it as high as 3k in some instances like the recent WRX 10w-30 post.

[ August 12, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
The oil filler cap on the 330xi is on top of the engine (valve cover) towards the front of the car.

See the second picture at this site.

I'm not quite ready to dismiss M1 0W-40 for the turbo SAAB; I don't think the engine's fully broken in yet.

I wonder what UOAs on Porsche turbos running this oil look like?

Jason
 
I'm impressed with the very low silicon number with the K&N air filter. How'd you manage that?

[ August 12, 2003, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
 
Hi guys, & thanks for the continued input & questions!
worshippy.gif


Let me add a little more for car history & personal preferences:
I forgot to say that I ran a can of BG-44K in the gas right after I started the interval, & then had the dealer run the BG induction/injection-system cleaning after we got back from the Memorial Weekend trip (it was their "first step" in resolving the cold-start problem). I know there's been some discussion that fuel system cleaners may affect the oil, & I meant to include this info in the first post.
We bought the car at the end of '00 (two years old at that point) as a "Saab-corporate-employee" lease-return with 16k miles on it. It was very clean, but there was no record of how the car was treated or broken in, or what the oil change frequency or brand/type was. The only clue to maintenance was that all four high-performance 50-series tires were grossly underinflated (one down to 12psi). For all I know, the original factory oil was run for the entire 2yrs/16k miles. But, it came with a 4yr/34k mi warranty, so I figgerd any major problems should show up in that time.
My environmental bent is permanently welded to my cost-saving tendencies, so I want to invest/consume as few resources as possible & use things up completely. Oh, & I'm at the point ("older & wiser"?) where convenience is being figgerd into the cost of an item.

Patman,
Yes, this may be the case. I've got a lot of M1 on-hand (there was a really good sale), so I'd prefer to find a workable solution for my current stock.

Cary,
I understand completely, & your plan sounds like a good one. I just didn't want you to stress-out unnecessarily over what you were currently using. (You might want to revisit those RedLine turbo UOAs. I'm not convinced the product's holding up relative to the cost difference.)

Jason,
No worries; post away! I'm now thinking your Factory Fill UOA could very well have started out as a 40wt! Since I have the LPT/auto combination, I'm sure your HOT/stick combo could make short work of that oil.

Al,
Yes, I think this would probably be a fantstic oil to use in this engine, even though Trevor's Saab/D1 UOA wasn't leaps-&-bounds better than mine. (It did hold it's viscosity better, but maybe there's more to it than that?) Saab's OE oil formulations show deisel-style additive packages, so I wouldn't hesitate to use D1 if:
1) It was readily available, &
2) It was priced similar to M1.
Zeke's Saab/M1 15W-50 UOA gives me hope that there's a workable M1 solution here.

Paul,
I would go even farther & say that Saab turbos are a lot harder on any oil than any of us expected. However, keeping in mind that Saabs have a good longevity reputation, that "factory fill" was identified in a '00 TSB as being 0W-40, & that the factory recommendation has been ACEA A3 for a number of years, I'm not even close to an "abandon ship" status.

buster,
My VOA Ca started at 2800, so I'm guessing the oil's doing its job with all the short trips (& odd procedures) this car's seen during this period.

Jay,
The only explanation I have is that I haven't cleaned it yet, & I don't open the airbox unless I absolutely have to. I plan on taking K&N's recommendation & leaving it until at least 50k miles before I clean it for the first time. Right now the airbox & IC are stock, but once I'm OOW I'll be modifying the intake to reduce restrictions. If anything, this should lower the Si levels even further, since intake velocities should drop for the same power requirements.

Once again, thanks for the continued observations & suggestions! I really appreciate all the thought going into what's been said so far.

cheers.gif
 
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