It is my understanding older formulations of Mobil 1 contained esters, or POE. Somewhere along the line the switch was made to PAO. What was the reason behind this? Was POE harmful to seals in concentration, or did Mobil decide PAO was as good OR near as good but cheaper, thus more profit.
Mobil 1 no esters
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The drawbacks being?
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
They found a way to get the benefits of esters without the drawbacks.
More like a percentage of the benefits of esters without the cost.
They (Exxon-Mobil) still make POE-based lubes. But as far as I know, they are only for jet aircraft engines.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
They found a way to get the benefits of esters without the drawbacks.
More like a percentage of the benefits of esters without the cost.
They (Exxon-Mobil) still make POE-based lubes. But as far as I know, they are only for jet aircraft engines.
Originally Posted By: nucleardawg
It is my understanding older formulations of Mobil 1 contained esters, or POE. Somewhere along the line the switch was made to PAO. What was the reason behind this? Was POE harmful to seals in concentration, or did Mobil decide PAO was as good OR near as good but cheaper, thus more profit.
They didn't switch to PAO. PAO has always been the primary base oil in Mobil 1. Beginning with the SuperSyn formula they replaced the esters in the base oil blend with alkylated naphthalenes.
It is my understanding older formulations of Mobil 1 contained esters, or POE. Somewhere along the line the switch was made to PAO. What was the reason behind this? Was POE harmful to seals in concentration, or did Mobil decide PAO was as good OR near as good but cheaper, thus more profit.
They didn't switch to PAO. PAO has always been the primary base oil in Mobil 1. Beginning with the SuperSyn formula they replaced the esters in the base oil blend with alkylated naphthalenes.
Originally Posted By: buster
Mobil contains Group V base oils such as POE's and alkylated napthalenes. Both are very polar base oils.
Is there any evidence out there that supports M1 containing any POE? I haven't seen it.
Besides, we already know that most M1 GF-4 30 weights are 30-40% Group III and 30-40% PAO. They contain a relatively small percentage of ANs, if it does contain esters the percentage has to be minuscule.
Mobil contains Group V base oils such as POE's and alkylated napthalenes. Both are very polar base oils.
Is there any evidence out there that supports M1 containing any POE? I haven't seen it.
Besides, we already know that most M1 GF-4 30 weights are 30-40% Group III and 30-40% PAO. They contain a relatively small percentage of ANs, if it does contain esters the percentage has to be minuscule.
As I recall, the original M1 formulation of the mid 70s was based primarily on PAO and contained a mixture of two POEs at less than 20%. They then switched to a PAO/Diester blend, and then back to a PAO/POE blend in the 90s. Most of the POE was replaced by an AN a few years back, at least in some grades, but still contained some small percentage of POE.
ANs have better hydrolytic stability than most POEs, however, hydrolytic stability is not generally a significant issue in PCMOs. POEs have better solvency, VI, oxidative stability, and lower coking/sludge tendencies. These differences, however, are also not very meaningful in normal driving conditions and considering the low dosage.
POEs are generally overkill for motor oils and are expensive. Most oil companies avoid them if they can achieve their performance targets through lower cost chemistry. Those companies with higher performance targets tend to embrace esters, especially POEs.
Tom NJ
ANs have better hydrolytic stability than most POEs, however, hydrolytic stability is not generally a significant issue in PCMOs. POEs have better solvency, VI, oxidative stability, and lower coking/sludge tendencies. These differences, however, are also not very meaningful in normal driving conditions and considering the low dosage.
POEs are generally overkill for motor oils and are expensive. Most oil companies avoid them if they can achieve their performance targets through lower cost chemistry. Those companies with higher performance targets tend to embrace esters, especially POEs.
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
I question that they got the full benefit of esters with
whatever their using because they (Mobil) don't recommend their
oil for the new Nissan/Infiniti VQ37VHR motor.
Of course they didn't get the FULL benefits of esters. Just the ones they wanted, as Tom NJ described.
I question that they got the full benefit of esters with
whatever their using because they (Mobil) don't recommend their
oil for the new Nissan/Infiniti VQ37VHR motor.
Of course they didn't get the FULL benefits of esters. Just the ones they wanted, as Tom NJ described.
You guys are dreaming -- I wouldn't be surprised if automotive (except 0w-40) M1 isn't mostly Grp III basestocks. Why would they sell Group IV based oil at nearly the same price as competitors selling Grp III ? XOM isn't making any noises about Castrol anymore and they have reformulated several times since then anyway. Notice they never clain in writing to have 100% Ester or PAO basestocks like Motul or Maxima or Redline? For that matter neither does Amsoil anymore.
Wishful thinking IMHO
Wishful thinking IMHO
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
You guys are dreaming -- I wouldn't be surprised if automotive (except 0w-40) M1 isn't mostly Grp III basestocks. Why would they sell Group IV based oil at nearly the same price as competitors selling Grp III ?
Because if they did, a lot of people with Porsche 911 GT2s, Dodge Vipers, and Nissan GT-Rs would be pretty annoyed.
Plus, you're not taking volume into account. Mobil makes a LOT of Mobil 1, and they are a huge supplier of PAO themselves. I'd imagine that would keep the cost per bottle down, even if none of it is Group III.
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
XOM isn't making any noises about Castrol anymore
...because they didn't gain anything by doing so.
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
and they have reformulated several times since then anyway. Notice they never clain in writing to have 100% Ester or PAO basestocks like Motul or Maxima or Redline? For that matter neither does Amsoil anymore.
Wishful thinking IMHO
Making promises like that only pins them down. What if they discover that they can improve the formula by altering that content?
You guys are dreaming -- I wouldn't be surprised if automotive (except 0w-40) M1 isn't mostly Grp III basestocks. Why would they sell Group IV based oil at nearly the same price as competitors selling Grp III ?
Because if they did, a lot of people with Porsche 911 GT2s, Dodge Vipers, and Nissan GT-Rs would be pretty annoyed.
Plus, you're not taking volume into account. Mobil makes a LOT of Mobil 1, and they are a huge supplier of PAO themselves. I'd imagine that would keep the cost per bottle down, even if none of it is Group III.
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
XOM isn't making any noises about Castrol anymore
...because they didn't gain anything by doing so.
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
and they have reformulated several times since then anyway. Notice they never clain in writing to have 100% Ester or PAO basestocks like Motul or Maxima or Redline? For that matter neither does Amsoil anymore.
Wishful thinking IMHO
Making promises like that only pins them down. What if they discover that they can improve the formula by altering that content?
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I`d figure since they`re one of the largest PAO manufacturers,they`d use it in their own products.
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
I wouldn't be surprised if automotive (except 0w-40) M1 isn't mostly Grp III basestocks.
Of course, and for the reasons you state. They make PAO, but they also make Group III. In any case, net profit trumps using your own materials.
I use M1, partly because I like their Grp III, IV, V base oil blend, but mostly because I believe they are devoted to high performance and reputation. That said, I wish they were more forthcoming with respect to customer questions and competitor accusations. I'm not holding my breath though.
Tom NJ
I wouldn't be surprised if automotive (except 0w-40) M1 isn't mostly Grp III basestocks.
Of course, and for the reasons you state. They make PAO, but they also make Group III. In any case, net profit trumps using your own materials.
I use M1, partly because I like their Grp III, IV, V base oil blend, but mostly because I believe they are devoted to high performance and reputation. That said, I wish they were more forthcoming with respect to customer questions and competitor accusations. I'm not holding my breath though.
Tom NJ
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