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#130169 - 04/18/05 05:45 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
drive4show Offline


Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 157
Loc: San Jose, CA
quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
I hope we aren't all going to end up in the same retirement home some day. [Wink]

buster: "Look at moribundman. He seems slow. I bet he's using that ultra-heavy 50 weight in his wheelchair." (I presume we will have gas-powered wheelchairs!)


moribundman: " I heard that, buster! Better check your oil. I think your rod bearings are knocking."

I'm hoping for a nuclear powered personal hovercraft with sealed lifetime bearings. [Big Grin]
What's a good OCI for that gas-powered wheelchair? Mostly short trips between the bed and the bathroom, with occasional long trips to the dining room. Never gets below 20 degrees F. [Cheers!]

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#130170 - 04/18/05 05:56 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
1sttruck Offline


Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 4378
Loc: Camas, WA
Regardless of what people like or don't like, in their TSB Ford says that 5W20 was being recommended for fuel economy. Even as a synthetic blend the OEM 5W20 does not offer the same protection as 5W30 dino since Ford excluded a number of all vehicles from using 5W20. Outside of the US Honda states that 5W20 provides good fuel mileage but it is not recommended for sustained high speed driving. Ford, Honda and others seem to use heavier oils in the same vehicles outside of the US.

Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge something that even the car makers have said ?

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#130171 - 04/18/05 06:06 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8854
Loc: SC
quote:
Originally posted by the_oil_dealer:
That thin basestock cant be good for volatility protection in the long run either... [I dont know] but hey!

[LOL!]

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#130172 - 04/18/05 06:10 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8854
Loc: SC
quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Ford excluded a number of all vehicles from using 5W20.

Wrong. They excluded TWO: The Lincoln LS V8 (basically a detuned Jag engine) and the Explorer with the 4.0 V6 (again, an engine designed in Europe). Everything else got 5w20 retroactively recommended all the way back to the early 90s.

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#130173 - 04/18/05 06:16 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29157
Loc: NJ
I think we are all right and wrong.

A well formulated 20wt will beat out a **** poor 30wt and vice versa. Viscosity is just one spec.

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#130174 - 04/18/05 06:16 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
Dr. T Offline


Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 2480
"I wonder why the Europeans are not using thinner oils if they do in fact provide better gas mileage. They are paying over $8 a gallon in places. If it gave that much better gas milage then why aren't they all using it."

Because the more intelligent motor vehicle populus in Europe selects a vehicle's fuel consumption based on engine size in liters vs. using a thinner oil.

Secondly, engine oil is just as expensive as fuel. Using thinner oils that are 1) consumed more 2) Require shorter OCI's 3) Reduce engine life are NOT a plus when it comes to saving money.

[ April 18, 2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Dr. T ]

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#130175 - 04/18/05 06:18 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
AEHaas Offline


Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1312
Loc: Sarasota, Florida
quote:
Originally posted by the_oil_dealer:
quote:
Originally posted by Al:
This oil serves two purposes..increases CAFE and allows engines to wear out a bit early..but agter warranty is over. Note that there is no proof for this but the EPA backed off (under industry pressure) requiring manufactures to specify 150K (I believe that's the number) engine durability.

a 20wt will run ya fine for the first 100k of service, but after that, tolerances increase, wear rates will grow exponentially, provided 20wt's were used all of an engine's life. That thin basestock cant be good for volatility protection in the long run either... [I dont know] but hey!
One of the reasons for SM oils is to be certain that emissions were controlled for 120k miles (I was told). Now if the 20 wt oils could not hold the engine together then it would seem that emissions would fail and so would the car's emission warrantee. By law the emissions have to be controlled for this time period.

Also, I always wondered why they never spec oils for different levels of wear. It would make sense to spec the 20 wt oil for the first 60k miles then 30 and finally 40 wt oil after xxx miles. The same goes for engines that spec a 40 wt oil from the start. Wouldn't a 50 and then a 60 wt oil be needed after a bunch of miles.
My nurse has used Pennzoil 5W-30 in her Camry for well over 200k miles. Maybe, if the engine was made right from the start it will last forever regardless of what oil you use, assuming you take good care of it.
In the meantime I run cooler, get a tad better gas mileage and get a lot more power with my thinner oils.

aehaas

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#130176 - 04/18/05 06:20 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
quote:
Originally posted by AEHaas:
Somehow I do not think that 20 wt oils exist solely for better fuel economy. First of all you may get 1/2 or 1 more MPG. If you want 1 or 2 MPG better then make the engine a few cc smaller. If every engine was just a little smaller then you get better gas mileage for the whole car line-up.

Several automotive manufacturers make only small cars. Chevy makes a bunch of Big, Thirst cars and trucks and a few small cars. They cannot compete with these “small car Only” companies. Mercedes has no small US cars and many are real gas guzzlers. Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini and many others make Only REALLY THIRSTY cars. They do not HAVE TO MEET EPA, CAFE standards for MPG. The answer is NO. The average “fleet” MPG is whatever it is.

Yes I paid a single gas guzzler tax when I bought my cars but no US car buyer looks at that or they would never buy all these cars the American car buyers keep buying. Few American car buyers buy hybrid cars. Just look at the stats. We by SUV’s.

There used to be a lot of tiny imported trucks. Now look at them. They are all HUGE trucks from the same companies. This is what we buy.

I do not think that Ford recommends a 20 wt oil in my Expedition to be able to meet some fleet-wide CAFE rule by getting a half more MPG. My “old” Mercedes SEL 600 with a 6.0 liter V12 and 412 BHP has run 80,000 miles on mostly Pennzoil 20 wt oil with 3-4,000 mile OCI’s and is running strong with no oil consumption at all. These “thin” oils can work and in my thinking provide better overall protection for us “short trip” Americans who are driving mostly in the start-up period.

I do not think that 20 wt oil was developed just to increase the average MPG of automotive manufacturer’s fleets to be able the meet MPG requirements. Cars are getting bigger. Engines are bigger and more powerful. This is what the average American is buying, not gas mileage.

aehaas

ae...

I greatly respect the seriousness and sincerity with which you approach the subject of automotive engine lubrication and, if your premise that 1/2 to 1 mpg is all you get is correct, it is indeed hard to refute your assertion that it doesn't make sense to promote use of 20wts based on that attribute alone. I suppose unless we could get into the boardrooms and labs of the majors we will never know the answer for sure, but I will tell you that, on this one, I am convinced...20wts represent another episode in the devolution of engine protection in the name of CAFE or other standards not related to improved protection. I am surprised that Honda is a participant. It does not surprise me that Ford is. (I have owned two Fords and, with the exception of some specialty cars their engineering does not impress me.)

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#130177 - 04/18/05 06:27 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
1sttruck Offline


Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 4378
Loc: Camas, WA
From the TSB below, certainly more than 2 engines were excluded, especially considering that the list is not exhaustive. SHO owners noticed that they were not on the 'use' list.

It doesn't matter where an engine was designed, all that matters is whether the OEM semi-synthetic 5W20 provides as much protection as dino 5W30; since not all vehicles were approved for 5W20 it is obvious that 5w20 does not provide as much protection as 5w30.


Table 2. Recommended 2001 Ford engines/vehicles for SAE 5W-30 oil (in order of increasing displacement)
2.5-L Ranger
3.3-L Villager
3.9-L Lincoln LS
4.0-L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, Explorer Sport Trac
5.0-L Explorer/Mountaineer

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#130178 - 04/18/05 06:41 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8854
Loc: SC
quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
From the TSB below, certainly more than 2 engines were excluded, especially considering that the list is not exhaustive.Table 2. Recommended 2001 Ford engines/vehicles for SAE 5W-30 oil (in order of increasing displacement)
2.5-L Ranger
3.3-L Villager
3.9-L Lincoln LS
4.0-L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, Explorer Sport Trac
5.0-L Explorer/Mountaineer

Yeah, I forgot about the 4 cyl in the Ranger and the Nissan engine in the Villager. However, in the most recent "list" the 5.0 is now approved for 5w20.

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#130179 - 04/18/05 06:47 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
I would like to modify my statement in my response to AEHAAS above..20 wts with HT/HS less than 3.0cP, represent another episode etc etc. Despite my thesis I fell into my own trap...it is NOT viscosity that matters in this discussion it is HT/HS. If a 5W-20, all other performance aspects also being acceptable, is at least 3.0 (yes I prefer 3.5 and higher) then I can live with it. I probably won't use it, but I can live with it. [Big Grin]

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#130180 - 04/18/05 06:48 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29157
Loc: NJ
I agree with pscholte. Good point. [Cheers!]

I'm going to call Dave G. at RL tomorrow. Why not get his take? [Wink]

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#130181 - 04/18/05 07:09 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
And anpother find on the Fuchs-Silkolene site:
http://www.silkolene.com/
click on "product range," then pick "4 wheel motor sports products."


Compare for example what they say about wear, level of protection, and application!

Excerpt:

quote:

Pro S 5W-40
A fully synthetic high performance engine oil that provides optimum protection for extended engine life and reliability. It exceeds the performance requirements of virtually all engine manufacturers. Combines exceptional anti-wear performance and outstanding high temperature protection with excellent cold start characteristics. Suitable for use in turbocharged and normally aspirated, diesel and petrol engines to ensure continued maximum fuel economy and reduced emissions. API SJ, SL, CF, ACEA A3, B3, BMW & MERCEDES


Silkolene 0W-20
Silkolene 0W-20 advanced development project is an entirely new concept in racing lubrication. Racing engines lose power and fuel energy due to oil drag and friction. This maximum power Silkolene 0W-20 is a unique low viscosity synthetic which cuts oil drag yet maintains a tough low-wear film on highly stressed components. Specially researched friction modifier chemistry depends upon electrostatic adhesion to attack friction at crucial points in valve and power train systems – two sources of hidden power give that vital edge in acceleration and full throttle output. Electrosyntec technology – releases hidden power. CAUTION: strictly for professional racing and track use only. Some older engine designs may have inadequate oil pump capacity under race conditions to maintain full oil pressure with this low viscosity product.

DOES ANYBODY SEE THE WARNING? [Razz]

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#130182 - 04/18/05 07:57 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
AEHaas Offline


Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1312
Loc: Sarasota, Florida
Would it not have been easier to just use synthetic 30 wt oils instead of developing dino 20 wt oils? Don’t the synthetic producers advertise huge gains on fuel economy and HP gains compared to dino oils?

aehaas

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#130183 - 04/18/05 08:03 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
Johnny Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
That would have worked if all they were selling to were the 6,729 members on this site. If you told the masses that if you are going to drive our cars, you have to use synthetic oil, well they would not sell many cars. Most of the driving population in this country could care less about synthetic oils. Face it, we're oil crazy.

Wait a minute [freaknout] Isn't there a TV show called Car Crazy on the Speed Channel? Maybe we should start a TV show. [I dont know]

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